Help?? Your advise is required for total marine newbie

[RTBS]

Hi there just registered after lurking here in the forums for many months learning heaps I might add. My wife and I have always had pond gold fish and added fresh water tropicals to our home at start of 2006. We now have 2 tanks 110L, (std glass type), and 215L, (AquaOne AR980). Found them very addictive, first one tank then a bigger one oooooh the power bill has grown!!!!!!!!! (Wife wants AquaOne Windsor 88 but don't think the floor is strong enough for it)

Now we think we might try a Marine tank am looking for help in selecting equipment and setting up.

Looking for a smaller marine set up maybe 4-6 Small fish, ie couple clowns etc + clean up crew (couple cleaner shrimp) and anenome for clowns.

So questions,

What is the smallest size tank which would be practible for above set up?

Is it possible / practible to use live sand / live rock as the filter system and do weekly water changes, ie no skimmer.

Is it possible to get "live sand", can we just get some from the local beach, (Tahuna, Nelson)

What sort of lighting / pumps would we need, Could we get by with not using metal halide lighting??

Is NSW, (which I assume means Natural Sea Water), better than made up. If Man Made is better how much can I expect to spend on salt and other consumables each month.

Lastly what are the essential bits that are must haves, ie bits you cant do with out, I imagine a specific gravity tester would be one thing.

Sorry for all the questions but it's like stating from scratch all over again and even though in the year we have been keeping Fresh water we have only lost 4 fish, all from same supplier, this would still be expensive in a marine setup.

Sorry for the long post

Cheers

Mike

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[Pies]

Hi there just registered after lurking here in the forums for many months learning heaps I might add. My wife and I have always had pond gold fish and added fresh water tropicals to our home at start of 2006. We now have 2 tanks 110L, (std glass type), and 215L, (AquaOne AR980). Found them very addictive, first one tank then a bigger one oooooh the power bill has grown!!!!!!!!! (Wife wants AquaOne Windsor 88 but don't think the floor is strong enough for it)

Now we think we might try a Marine tank am looking for help in selecting equipment and setting up.

Looking for a smaller marine set up maybe 4-6 Small fish, ie couple clowns etc + clean up crew (couple cleaner shrimp) and anenome for clowns.

So questions,

What is the smallest size tank which would be practible for above set up?

Is it possible / practible to use live sand / live rock as the filter system and do weekly water changes, ie no skimmer.

Is it possible to get "live sand", can we just get some from the local beach, (Tahuna, Nelson)

What sort of lighting / pumps would we need, Could we get by with not using metal halide lighting??

Is NSW, (which I assume means Natural Sea Water), better than made up. If Man Made is better how much can I expect to spend on salt and other consumables each month.

Lastly what are the essential bits that are must haves, ie bits you cant do with out, I imagine a specific gravity tester would be one thing.

Sorry for all the questions but it's like stating from scratch all over again and even though in the year we have been keeping Fresh water we have only lost 4 fish, all from same supplier, this would still be expensive in a marine setup.

Sorry for the long post

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike, I grew up in Nelson.

the first thing you need to do is buy a book. I would buy 'Tullock Natural Reef Aquairums'. Its the best book for practical setup.

To answer some of your questions quickly.

The smallest tank should be the largest you can fit/afford. If you considering 3 foot or smaller I would say forget it.

Metal Halide lighting is pretty much a requirement for keeping an Anemone. No halides, no anemones.

You cannot use sand from the beach, its full of silicates. The sand in marine tanks is crushed coral rock. Sand is not required anyway.

No skimmer? The general concencious is no. Without an export system you will struggle from day one. I know 1 guy doing it here, and he has algae issues, health issues and general problems. I think he will add a skimmer very soon.

Minimum kit required? Its a big list:

Refractomotor - measures sg of salt water

Test Kits - Nitrate, CA, P04, MG, KH, PH. MINIMUM, without these you are in trouble.

Skimmer (sorry!)

Heater

Circulation pumps

RO/DI water purifier

Water cirulation pumps

timers

Supliments (KH/MG/CA)

Live rock xkg (more rock the better, this is your filter, pay between $10-$15kg). I have about 250kg in my system

Marine tanks work with stability, and fail without stability. Its an expensive hobby, be ware of the costs. Thousands of dollars.

Good luck, but the book and read it. It will give you lots of help. also check www.reefcentral.com

Cheers

[evilknieval69]

I know 1 guy doing it here, and he has algae issues, health issues and general problems. I think he will add a skimmer very soon.

There is more than 1 person here running a marine tank without a skimmer, i can think of 2 that i know straight away (me and steve-s) mind you, our tanks are only 30 Litres.... I think you mean, i know of 1 person here who runs a large marine tank (not nano or anything) who doesnt run a skimmer blah blah blah etc....

It can be done, but i, even though i dont have a skimmer, would advise having one....(my tank cant fit one) Also, dont use tap water for top up, i have no skimmer, and use tap water for top up ( :oops: at the moment anyways) and my tank is BROWN!!!! corals are looking good, but lots and lots of brown algae and cyano....

[RTBS]

Thnks for the replies,, Thing somewhere between 100-200 ltrs

How does this sound is it realistic??

Do you know who stocks this book, I'm not in a hurry.

Could you use natural sea water to begin with, and for water changes and top up with distilled water for water lost with evaporation.

We were looking at 320l tank but as we live in the top of a 2 storey house there are some issues with weight.

[JDM]

everything pies said.

however, i set up a 100ltr tank 2 years ago for my mum, i maintain it for her as well.

she has an anemone a pair of clowns and 2 other small fish and misc soft corals, it has a needle wheel skimmer and 4xt5s, seio for water movement, live rock for filtration plus po4 remover and a small bag of carbon.

this goes against the grain, but it is an excellent tank that has very good growth of soft corals and excellent water quality. we do 10-15% water change each week with NSW, and use tap water for top off, have had an algae problem i must admit, vodka has been dosed recently and this has sorted it and its a great looking tank.

relatively cheap to set up, but i use my test gear for her tank so that removes some of the initial costs but even so, this tank has not cost $1500 and that's incl the live stock!

BUT as a general rule, this hobby will cost you thousands, and you will become addicted, best advice anyone can give you is BUY QUALITY, don't think a $100 skimmer will do the job, regardless of what some people might tell you.

think of it this way, 2 clown fish $120 (ish) anemone $150 few corals $300 and another couple of fish $200, that's $970, now if you are prepared to spend that on live stock, then you should be prepared to spend at least $500 on a decent skimmer. this is one purchase that seems to cost too much for what they are ( or more how complicated they look), however i don't know anyone who regrets getting a good (usually expensive) skimmer.

[RTBS]

Pies Thanks for the reply, Book ordered off internet tonight

Like I said not in a hurry so will read the book and see if its really for me.

My wife and I both love our freshwaters

JDM Thanks also for you advise, sounds like my other hobby, buy one and buy right or you will be buying twice.

Local LFS has Marine Set up s/h in AR620 for $799, no skimmer and only Filter which comes with unit, no fish. Been trying the hard sell on me but I am suspicious by nature.

[TM]

Also check out the links at the top of this page, they have a wealth of info.

www.reefcentral.com is also very good.

[raeh1]

yip, you can do it cheap as... probably for $500-600 (as my local fishstore told me.. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Unless you wish to have anything interesting (anemones, shrimp, corals etc... etc...)

Then the cost is as much as you wish to spend...

Budget at least 2000-3000 and take your time shopping and READING up. Also look on trademe will save you heaps, and make your money go further.

Good luck..

JDM has a good tank on trademe for cheap, don't know how you would get it to Nelson :lol: :lol:

[TM]

there is a few in chch to

[KP]

Buy cheap, you buy twice

[shiuh]

i am also very keen on marine setup. but in saying that...knowing that i am on a tight budget has put me off. if i dont have the all the right equipments (decent ones i mean), and also keeping in mind with the regularly cost involved and maintainence requirements for it, i would have to say i am not ready yet.

if i just jump ahead and try to setup with an inproper system with cutting the cost and avoiding expensive stuff, this is will put me into more financial difficulties in the future. My approach is if you do it you have to do it right the first time, even if its cost more. this will saves a lot of hassle/ cost / time later.

i have been lurking in the saltwater threads for while now. Perhaps someday when im ready. for now..its just pretty much reading and learning a bit more on the saltwater side for me.

[steve-s]

Refractomotor - measures sg of salt water

Do you have trouble getting it started on cold mornings? :lol:

Cheers,

Steve

[Feelers]

RTBS I would seriously recommend hunting trademe, the marine systems always go for really cheap but they generally dont have good skimmers on them.

I recently bought a tank off TM, the guy had a potentially awesome setup but didn't have a skimmer. I found it weird he would go so far but not take the deciding step that would have turned a medeocre tank into an excellent setup.

Have you thought about going fish only, or perhaps softies (ie without the anemone). If fish only your costs are much less and with softies you save lots on lighting and electricity, and you can even get clowns to host in them if your lucky. Sweet that you took the initative and bought the book, it will pay for itself time and again. You already off to a better start than most.

Oh and be warned, I had a look round the Nelson pet store marine section and they had the highest price for clearner shrimps anyone on the board had seen. :lol:

[RTBS]

RTBS I would seriously recommend hunting trademe, the marine systems always go for really cheap but they generally dont have good skimmers on them.

I recently bought a tank off TM, the guy had a potentially awesome setup but didn't have a skimmer. I found it weird he would go so far but not take the deciding step that would have turned a medeocre tank into an excellent setup.

Have you thought about going fish only, or perhaps softies (ie without the anemone). If fish only your costs are much less and with softies you save lots on lighting and electricity, and you can even get clowns to host in them if your lucky. Sweet that you took the initative and bought the book, it will pay for itself time and again. You already off to a better start than most.

Oh and be warned, I had a look round the Nelson pet store marine section and they had the highest price for clearner shrimps anyone on the board had seen. :lol:

Feelers and everybody else who has replied, thanks for all the advise

Am going to wait for the book to arrive before doing anything else.

Yes we have looked at trademe, one of the other members here had a tank which looked awesome and what seemed like a steal but as it was in Hamilton and we are on the other side of the ditch not really a sensible option. I have found a lot of information about "Nano Reefing" here , http://www.nano-reef.com/articles/ and wondered if this might be an OK set up for say four fish and some softies however we are still not committed only comment my wife has made is that she is keen to go the marine way to BUT the tank MUST look tidy, no wires etc everywhere!!!!!

She even suggested last night we find new homes for all out Platties, Guppies, Swords etc, then move the RTBS and some of his mates that we could not bear to part with to the smaller tank, (110L) and then Convert our AR980 to marine, me I would rather another tank but it is an option.

Thanks everybody

[RTBS]

Ok Xmas has been and gone and now we back into it. Got the book and read it and again, and again and again, brought another and read it 2 After much discussion Santa brought a brand new AR620 at a knockdown price.

All the freshies we want to keep are going to migrate accross the room a bit. The rest we are going to sell or give away to good homes.

AR980 will become marine tank with a bit of a lighting upgrade I'm guessing and extra pumps and a skimmer for now and a 200l sump under the house later after I have had a bit, (wife says a lot) of practise drilling holes in glass!!!!!

After much discussion we are going to start with softies and some fish

Skimmer Question

As far as a skimmer goes my brother has offered to get me one in the US, he live there, and send it out. We already have 110VAC in the house as we have lots of other 110 stuff, (as you do). He can get a Deltec MC500 at a LFS close to him but we don't know if this is a good brand, seems to be from searching here on this site, but it says 600l normal stocking / 400l heavy stocking and our tank will be 215l. Could we be OVER SKIMMING the book I have seems to indicate you need to get something speced close to you tank capacity. Price about $450NZ all up.

is this cheap / expensive or can we buy local for similar price

Lighting

Does anyone know or has any one upgraded the tubes on their AR980. has 2 x 36inch and 1 x 30 inch tubes. Can anyone reccomend best power and type of tube for a marine set up. I am totally confused by this??

Can we fit T5 HO tube with out too much modification??

This is only to get started, we plan on maybe removing the hood and fitting pendant MH at a later stage but like the sump this will mean alterations to our house design to make things look right

Thanks in advance for all the replies

Have a happy New Year

Mike

[hazymranch]

Hi Mike,

I modified an Aqua One tank like the one you have and found a few things:

1) Drilling an assembled tank was such a risky proposition that even professional glaziers wouldn't do it for me. An overflow weir could be a good option for you and you could have your brother send one with the skimmer...check on ebay or on sites like Marine Depot;

2) The lighting hood with the enclosed T8 lighting will not support much coral life and to modify it for T5 lighting wasn't that hard but you basically have to rip the whole existing lighting system out and replace it with a T5 retro-fit kit;

3) A hang-on-back skimmer will not fit with the hood in place so additional modification would be necessary. If you can get a Deltec MC500 for $475 then you should get it without hesitation as they are far more expensive here. Overskimming only becomes a problem if you have organisms in your tank that require some amount of dissolved organics present and a skimmer is so efficient that it completely strips the water clean. I wouldn't worry about that...it doesn't happen to people like you and I.

[RTBS]

Hey thanks for the quick reply,

Do you happen to have any pics of the "lights under your hood"

Might give me some ideas

Mike

[RTBS]

whoops

[evilknieval69]

If i was you, I would go straight to metal halide. Get rid of the hood all together. It is inevitable, you will do it anyway eventually. This will give you much more possibily for corals etc, And will make your tank look good and you will not regret it. Trust me, you WILL upgrade to halide eventualy, so why not do it now?!?!?!

Do it once, and do it right

EDIT: Also, that is an awesome price for that skimmer. The new Deltec mce300 skimmers are that price in NZ. Do it!!! Deltec is a well know and reputable brand!

Get him to send over a MH while hes at it, Oh and dont forget the bulb :lol:

[hazymranch]

I did pretty much as evil suggested you do and just did away with the hood altogether. I figured that it was as much work to build a new hood to include T5 and Metal Halides (that are not all that expensive at around $80 for a whole kit available at just about any electrical trade outlet) as it would be to modify the existing hood to fit new lighting. Also, I found the hood to be a massive waste of space as half of it is simply the lid used for feeding. It also prevented me from using any hang-on-back appliances.

Frankly if I ever start another tank again (ie. when I eventually upgrade as it seems is inevitable in this hobby) I will have one built and pre-drilled to spec for less than what the Aqua One tanks cost. Is there any way that you can return the tank and look into having one built? It is only my opinion, but one based on my experience and frustration at having to constantly modify a setup that is not really designed for reef tank use.

If you are interested, PM me and I can shoot you links to the mods I made to my tank to ready it for reef use.

cheers

[Hazzard]

I have a friend here in Chch running 3xt5ho inside each of 2x ar980 with stunning success. His coral growth and quality is second to none and those that know these tanks will testify to this.

[TM]

I have a friend here in Chch running 3xt5ho inside each of 2x ar980 with stunning success. His coral growth and quality is second to none and those that know these tanks will testify to this.

Yip, thats true.

No need for halide on that tank really, t5 upgrade would be all thats required.

Also drilling those tanks are really easy i have done quite a few. I would suggest you only try to drill the back panel so if it does break it would be easy to fix.

Don't waste your time with the clip on overflows as the flow rate is tiny.

Go with the deltec

[evilknieval69]

RTBS sounds like he wants to eventually have an anenomie though so may aswell go MH now shouldnt he?!?! MH is pretty much a necesity for Anenomies is it not?

[RTBS]

Yip, thats true.

No need for halide on that tank really, t5 upgrade would be all thats required.

Also drilling those tanks are really easy i have done quite a few. I would suggest you only try to drill the back panel so if it does break it would be easy to fix.

Don't waste your time with the clip on overflows as the flow rate is tiny.

Go with the deltec

I'll let my brother know the MC500 is OK and get it underway

TM thanks for the phone call and advise, we hope to be down in ChCh maybe end of Jan and would like if possible to see some of your tanks, would this be OK.

Does your friend have any Pictures of the T5 Retro fit or part numbers for the bits he used??

Thanks again to all those who have replied

Mike

[TM]

RTBS sounds like he wants to eventually have an anenomie though so may aswell go MH now shouldnt he?!?! MH is pretty much a necesity for Anenomies is it not?

yes and no, the tank is not that deep, t5s should be fine. You could always add a mh later and still use the t5s