getting worried, help

[ady_uk]

Hi, got a leather umbrella last week, which looked great until monday when it started to look limp , did water tests and found KH off the chart. added few drops of white vinegar, which helped a little bit. Calcium started to drop, so now have done 20% water change. Can someone tell me what effects the KH to go up? Leather umbrella has not opened yet and still looks limp.

Test results as 22/11/06

Ni=0

Na=5-10

Am=0

Po4=0

PH=8.2

Ca=380

Kh=13.1

Mg=1380

would I be best to use NSW in small tank and remove Leather umbrella out of maun tank? I dont want to lose it.

many thanks ady

[JDM]

that kh reading is not that high, prior to zeo i ran my kh between 12-13.

in my experance leathers "change there water" and can sometimes not open for a number of days, keep an eye on it, if it starts to look glossy on the surface then this could be a sign of infection, or if it begins to crumble then that is a bad sign, other wise i would just keep watching it.

has it got good flow over it? leathers like lots of flow to keep them clean, try that?

[wasp]

With JDM on that, also, you never quite know how a leather will go in a different tank. Sometimes they can open straight up like they never moved, or they can stay shrivelled up for weeks. Sometimes they will just die.

Your water parameters look OK, about all you can do is just make sure there is good aeration, plus keep a moderate flow on it.

[Zev]

We have one, it looked good for a couple of days when we first got it, then sulked for weeks - shrivelled up and shrunk to about a third of its size, or flopped over like it was gong to fall off its rock, or got bigger, but looked pimply with no extended polyps, or inverted itself so that its edges pointed upwards and looked thin and skinny, changed colour and looked as if someone had sprinkled sulphur on it...

It has come right now, but occasionaly has a shrivelled up period for a day or so, sheds it outer layer - as they do to get rid crud off their suface, then comes right again.

I'd leave it and see how it goes, shifting it around all the time may only make matters worse.

[ady_uk]

thanks for the advise, will leave it where it is, was slime coming off it and now looks clean of slime. still limp and lifeless. will keep thread posted on its progress.

[ady_uk]

just tested Kh and its 16.0

What makes the Kh rise? any help on this would be great. thanks

[wasp]

Only two things. You are adding something, or evaporation is concentrating it.

Possibly also your test kit is wrong for some reason. Do you know your salinity?

[JDM]

are you adding baking soda?

can you list what additives are you using please? kalkwasser (lime water)?

what is your ph now?

seems very strange that kh is rising, normally its keeping it up that is the problem. have you tested the water you use for water changes (ASW or NSW)?

[ady_uk]

test the NSW before I use it and add OR water to it,

salitily is 0.29

these are what I add if needed.

Ph is 7.8 ( added 10ml of proper PH 8.2 just now)

use coral grow as instrutions

strontium

Iodine, 5ml every second week

Tank is 180lt

Filter is eihum, changed filter pads last week removed and replace 1/3 filter media.

[ady_uk]

oh :oops:

very little evaporation, tank has hood, only top 1-2 lt every couple of days. do 10% water once a week.

[Krama]

hi ady_uk

can you confirm you sp

[cookie extreme]

like i said to you before stop using the PH up there is no need to add even more as a KH of 16 should keep your PH stable (it will flactuate during the day but thats normal). what material is in your eheim filter (any type of rock?)

[ady_uk]

hi cookie

have ceramic bio rings in the filter unit.

how low can the Ph fall too before it becomes unsafe?

[wasp]

Well I'm not Cookie, but here is my take.

In your tank, pH is determined mainly by alkalinity versus carbon dioxide. The more carbon dioxide in the water, the lower the pH. So you should keep the tank as aerated as possible. When there is too much Co2, pH can be raised by adding more alkalinity, that's probably what your pH up is, although i don't know.

So the best approach is to keep alkalinity at a sensible level, often from 8 to 11, make sure the tank is properly aerated, and your pH will be fine. If pH is dropping incredibly low, and your alkalinity is in that range, it is likely you do not have enough aeration, it is better to deal with that rather than keep adding more alkalinity.

Aeration is supplied by 2 main means, the skimmer, and surface agitation caused by the flow from your pumps. During the day, pH will tend to go up, because photosynthesis uses the Co2. At night pH goes down, as Co2 builds up.

So how low is too low for pH? 7.8 is often touted as pretty low, but it is hard to say exactly because the ideal is 8.3, and things get slowly worse as it drops, there is no definate point you can absolutely say is too low. If you can maintain pH at or around 8.0 during the night, you are doing well.

[wasp]

Another thing also, the ceramic rings in your cannister will have water flowing past, and be kept fully oxygenated. The bacteria that live in these conditions eat ammonia, nitrite, but not nitrate. The nitrate eating ones require a low oxygen environment, and are found in the deeper pores within the liverock. If the cannister is performing a lot of your nitrogen cycle, it is likely your nitrates will be building up. Too much of this can be damaging to your corals. The remedy is to remove the cannister, provided of course that you have enough liverock to do the job.

As for your currently high kh, best not to lower it with vinegar. It will slowly fall by itself if you just keep adding a little calcium every day. Might take a few weeks but best to do it this way. Although if you want to hurry things along some water changes would be fine, provided of course the water you are putting in has a low enough kh.

[Feelers]

there is no definate point you can absolutely say is too low

But; if you get do down to pH 1 or less, you're in trouble.

Its not about how many H+ ions you add, its the amount that you are taking out.

[wasp]

ROTFL!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Like all good Brits I am sure Ady will appreciate a joke!

[cookie extreme]

If you can maintain pH at or around 8.0 during the night, you are doing well.

just well? i would say he would be doing great as most "struggle" to keep theirs at that level. but a good point about airation, it still does not explain why his KH goes up unless he adds something that puts in more carbonate.

[wasp]

Is it the pH up? What is that stuff?

[cookie extreme]

its some sort of carbonate mix etc (have to admit don't know the exact recipe ) it will bring your PH to the "right level" within a very short time, just makes me wonder how much of the stuff remains in the tank and influence the KH in the long run once your PH goes down again for what ever reason and you tend to add some more of the stuff. most pet shops sell it and it works a tread on cichlids.

[wasp]

Sounds like that may be the culprit.

So it's a fresh water product?

[ady_uk]

the stuff is called proper pH8.2, recommend by pet shop :oops: it says: perfect for salt water, automatically sets pH at 8.2, but now I read it, it also increases KH, but says to repeat teatment if there is a change of more them 0.2 in the pH. think I will throw this stuff away.

[wasp]

Keep it, you can use it to raise kh when the need arises.

[Ira]

Heh, it's probably just baking soda for 10 times the price.

[Bubbles]

Could be helpful

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php