Something else to think about

[chimera]

While we're on the subject of theories by Eric Bourneman, here's another. This one was on feeding and how Eric feeds his tank reasonably heavily. The question was basically asked "doesnt increased feeding mean more nutrients, especially nitrates?" here's the answer. It is just a theory, as later he states "In terms of feeding more vs more often, I think more often is a more natural emulation, but have no evidence to say that it is actually more beneficial to the tank" still, it does make sense

So, I don't want to generalize to every tank, but, in general, I think reef tanks are capable of processing much much more food than the average aquarist feeds. A long time ago, when there were not efficient skimmers and people didn't keep reef tanks and tanks were fish only consisting of dead substrate (bacteria and algae coated) and fish and glass and non-export filtration (no skimming), was when the "rule" of don't overfeed was instilled. Having kept a freshwater tank, and experimental tanks without the standard "reef tank" design, it's true. If you overfeed, you end up with nutrient problems.

But, this is also the "rule" we are told and accept when we first start a reef tank. So, we feed x amount, and our systems equilibrate to deal with that volume of food. There will be no more and no less life than can be supported by the food that is either produced within or added to the aquarium. If you add more, there will be an increase in nutrients (unless the skimmer is just really effective, in which case it may not really register). But, if you feed more, eventually, you will see nutrients start to climb, and the first things that respond through fast growth are bacteria, cyanobacteria, and fast growing algae (single celled diatoms, turfs, etc.). Eventually, the system reaches a new higher steady state level, and everything is again limited. The nutrient levels in the tank disappear again. You can see this over and over again, and it is my experience that most reef tanks can handle a ridiculously large amount of food. Between the skimming, the corals, filter feeders, sponges, bacteria, coralline, worms, microfauna, meiofauna, etc., there are a lot of mouths. With this extra nutrition comes more reproduction, too....i.e. more mouths...which need more food. Eventually, of course, you reach a point where you have max'ed out what you can add, but you will be surprised just how much this is.

Now, when you start feeding more, most people see an algal increase or cyano, and back off immediately. Don't. This is the same phenomenon as happened when the tank was first set up. Its a community response to more nutrients. It's like cycling the tank. First come the diatoms, then the red slime, then the hair algae, then it dies, then corallines take over. Every year in the ocean, there is a cycle in the spring of a phytoplankton bloom, followed by a zooplankton bloom. Same sort of thing here. Now, the one caveat is that many nuisance algae are strong space competitors that you do not want to become heavily established during these periods. Eventually, they will take up the new nutrient additions and self-limit, but as plants are autotrophic light alone can keep them going. So, you have a tank with no measurable nutrients in the water column, but can still have a lot of algae. Now what? Well, the primary control to avoid this on reefs - and in tanks - is herbivory. So, you get to go purchase a new tang that you wanted, or you get some more snails, or an urchin. If done slowly, and you already have enough herbivores, just the increase in microherbivory by larger numbers of amphipods may be enough to control it. Or, maybe your super skimmer and ozone are in place, and whatever you pour in and is not eaten quickly is just pulled straight out. I have seen some tanks that I think could have a constant drip of food all day and all night, simply due to the export power.

Anyway, start slowly, be patient, and within a year you'll probably find you can dump ridiculously large amounts of food in the tank without any measurable nutrients in the tank.

[wasp]

Good article, Eric always has some good insights.

Just needs to be said though for the people just starting out in marine, that the idea is based on having very strong skimming. Crappy skimmer, forget the overfeeding.

[Fay]

[kevan]

how about a survey on how much food what type size of tank and load

I have 920 L

5 fish (3 medium 2 small)

I feed two blocks off mysis per day at one time and roids once every week or fortnight.

[chimera]

two blocks off mysis per day

frozen?

i feed mainly flake, pellets, nori, etc. do frozen once a week

[kevan]

Regal angel will only eat mysis plus constant grazing on algae

I've tied pellit and other food but only clowns eat this.

[suphew]

I feed mostly flake, and freeze dried shrimp, frozen every week or two.

Regal angel will only eat mysis plus constant grazing on algae

Have you tried not feeding the angel frozen food for a while? Most of my fish wouldn't eat flake etc when I first got them, it usually only takes a week or so of being hungry and watching the other fish eat flake before decide its not so bad after all.

[chimera]

my regal angel devours ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. he's a little pig! when not eating the food i give him, he's usually munching on algae on rocks, or mushrooms or the clams mantle. he is FAT!

[trinity]

I think he is dead on with what he says in this post and the other one about the maturity.

Especially with the things I have had happen to my tank since day one. It's almost like I am reading a diary written by myself :lol: :lol:

[Pies]

I used to feed very sparingly, I now feed heavly, cyclopsezee 2-4 times a day. Flake 1-3 times daily. Frozen 1-2 times a day (mysiss, brine, home made, blood worm).

Pie

[KP]

I thought flake was high in phosphates?

[chimera]

as the article says, it doesn't really matter - so long as your nutrient export (skimming, LR etc) is in balance with what you add

[lduncan]

I wonder if anyone was listening when I wrote this a few months ago in one of the many feeding threads at the time ;-) . ( I don't talk nearly as much shit as other would make out. )

You know I don't think the issue is whether fish are getting overfed, it's more how much food your tank can handled without nutrients becoming a problem.

There is nothing wrong with dumping a boat load of food in, so long as you have the ability to get the majority of the uneaten stuff out before it becomes a problem. The dangerous thing is letting food sit and rot. That's when the nutrients become an issue.

I think that a lot of people don't fed enough. I also think it's a bit strange when people stop feeding to try and control nutrient problems. The problem isn't that your feeding too much, it's that your system is not removing enough crap fast enough.

Layton

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/1-vt13 ... sc&start=0

Layton

[puttputt]

I don't talk nearly as much s--t as other would make out.

come on Layton, don't underrate yourself

[Fay]

I used to feed very sparingly, I now feed heavly, cyclopsezee 2-4 times a day. Flake 1-3 times daily. Frozen 1-2 times a day (mysiss, brine, home made, blood worm).

Pie

So why have you changed?

[KP]

Then whats the point in rinsing frozen food?

[lduncan]

Because a little phosphorous goes a LONG way.

It's tightly cycled, and kills corals in aquariums.

[KP]

So flake food doesn't have relatively high phosphates?

[lduncan]

I don't use flake. I don't know, guess it depends on the brand.

I would suspect there is a lot.

[wasp]

Most flake food is between 1 & 2 percent phosphate by weight.

Because of this I imported some Nutrafin Max flake from the US, it is a low phosphate flake with phosphate garuanteed between 0.6 & 0.9 percent.

I always read the label when buying fish food, if it does not say how much phosphate is in it, there is probably a reason they do not want to tell you.

But on the subject of washing frozen food, once a week or so I give my fish an all they can eat feed of mysis, I deliberately don't wash it because the corals obviously love all that fine mushy stuff, all the polyps come out to catch it, even the LPS's put their tentacles out for it, and even the zoos and palythoa can be seen catching it. Yes even zoos catch food they can be seen catching and eating it just like an anemone.

[Pies]

Hahaha now my fish food and my sand bed are going to kill my corals. Jeez.

Fay - I added a school of chromas, many of which were/are small. So I needed to amp up the feeding for them and I havn't stopped. I don't really think the tank has improved because of it, but it hasn't got worse either. So I like to see the little chromis feeding. Skimmer output in a little higher perhapps, but I havn't spent much energy trying to compare it.

I still have 0 nitrate and phosphate last time I checked (salifert). Everything else is where I want it.

[gregb]

We should have a servey into what people really think happened to poor Erics tank. Was it over feeding or was it the Russians, the neighbours or his wife?