Who knows about this Zebra's stripes?

[Tanksman]

I got some new malawi's as alot of you may know. They are awesome fish and once I took out the hybrid with the huge mouth they have really settled down nicely. I been mucking about with my budget camera and trying to ID a couple of them. The main one I would like help ID'ing is this male zebra. It looks like an Estherae to me. I'm gonna try and get some better shots but i think it's time to buy a decent camera.

[newbiesteph]

Could be kingsize?

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=894

I dunno like you say some more pics would be good.. Was watching those fish too you getting rid of any?

[Tiden]

I think it may have too many stripes for a kingsizei?

What is the main colour blue or gray, blue/gray??

[ryanjury]

Yeah I guess it does look like too many stripes for kingsizei..

Maybe just some sort of zebra?

I just dont know something looks different about it compared to a zebra though I just cant pick it..

[Tanksman]

Been playing with the Macro and tripod.

This is a better one

[ryanjury]

Hmm I dunno looks like a zebra.. Maybe post it here these guys seem to know everything.. lol

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=14

Very nice pic by the way

[Tanksman]

Thanks - he actually is just starting to pose if you notice - 2 seconds later and he was flaring right up for me. Still 1 good photo and 50 in the recycle bin . :roll:

[ryanjury]

Yeah the beauty of digital aye I have only a few pics worth keeping but there are 100's that have been deleted, its hard with fish that keep moving and point/shoot cameras.. Esp when ours has no macro. And I have no tripod...

[herefishiefishie]

To me it looks like all the old school zebs. Cross Breed.

Frenchy

[janine456]

I bought him as a blue zebra from Jansens. Pretty sure thats what he is

[Tanksman]

I guess thats why fish have latin names. Never mind I will keep him for a while. It beats looking at pictures in a book

[Johannes Visser]

Check and see if this helps.

http://www.bigskycichlids.com/Mslim_compactx.htm

[janine456]

If you dont want him, or any of the others, ill take them back no worries

[herefishiefishie]

I bought him as a blue zebra from Jansens. Pretty sure thats what he is

A blue zebra is just that. A name given to mbunas, that look like pseudotropheus. No one knows what they really are. Cross breed.

Frenchy

[Tanksman]

So Frenchy

Another thread has link to underwater film from lake malawi. There are alot of different species and subspecies in the lake. Also other sources say that there is as many as 20 fish per square metre living in the lake. So how do the various lines stay pure in that environment when in aquarium conditions they readily interbreed?

[ryanjury]

I think that maybe each female has a dominant male around that chases rival males away keeping them pure.. But yeah ive seen the video and it looks like they're all mixed in together a bit more room than the 5ft in our lounge though

[herefishiefishie]

Well pretty simple really. It will take me multi lines to type up all the reasons. Do some seacrhing on the net, read some books by Ad Konnings or George Barlow.

But I fail to see how this has anything to do with me saying these blue zebs are a cross breed, trust me I have seen plenty in my time.

Frenchy

[Tanksman]

Well pretty simple really. It will take me multi lines to type up all the reasons.

So in other words you don't know?

[Freakyfish]

I think more the point here is that generally the fish that will readily interbreed arent generally found in the numbers together that you think they are

Yes maybe you saw the video and expect the whole lake just the same with heaps of fish side by side but this isnt the case

Also with fish in your aquarium if you keep large enough numbers they will breed with their own without looking for a different species

Its only when u keep small numbers in a tank when they will crossbreed

With the fish you saw in the video(which I havent seen) How many are the same family?

Brad

[herefishiefishie]

Look at humans as an example. Different parts of the world look different. But if I live say somewhere like Japan, the urge to, cough cough is still there, I have limited choices

Remember a small mbuna is seperated from similar species in the next bay by deep water. What lives in deep water, predators.

I will post up more reasons tonight when I have time. Work calls.

Frenchy

[Tanksman]

The purpose of this thread was for me - A newbie to malawis - to get some feedback on my assumption - ie is that an estherae. To my untrained eye he looks alot like the estherae in the cichlidforum profile picture. I have had to do quite a steep learning curve upon arriving home with 9 large Mbuna and 4 hungry haps - one is obviously a major carnivore but is some sort of cross poss fryeri something else but he is the least of my worries - It's the mbuna I'm fascinated by so please excuse my enthusiasm. Now that you have pointed out the zebra's a hybrid I now know I need to seperate him from the estherae, and in fact all the other males really should come out. Is that right? species only and all that.

And thanks for directing me to the right people like Ad Konings as some of the drivvle on the net is shocking. I posed the question about hybridisation in the lake because I would like to know more about one piece in particular - and wether it has been updated as it was written By Ad Konings and others in June 2003.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... 03.01905.x

You can look for yourself it is quite interesting. It is the genetic study of M. zebra (Chiofu bay), M. sp (Makanjila) and M. thapsinogen who are in the same region but seperated on "islands" in like you say deep water or sandy bottom. It concludes that "genetic analysis of the .... M. Makanjila sample indicates that this population has arisen as a result of extensive hybridisation." They also said that further research is needed on the benefits of hybridisation on genetic variation and species diversity.

However I am not saying or trying to imply that we of poor selection already should wreck the lines we do have by producing hybrids of little benefit to the hobby. We definitely should keep specimens that we can be proud to tell evryone about and that it comes from such and such a location in lake Malawi -

What a long post thanks for reading it.

[herefishiefishie]

Sorry this is going to be a long post, firstly some reasons & insights into hybrids, wild fish...then what to look out for when buying cichlids. NZ has come leaps & bounds since I started on this forum with the cichlid side of things.. It used to be pretty quiet, I used to feel like I was posting to myself at times :lol: The amount of posts in here now is a credit to all of you in the land of the long white cloud, you have finally seen the light, these are the best fish, so interactive, the care of their young..... Here in Aussie we seem to be about 5 years in front when it comes to cichlids, as in, the blue zebra & common names on some cichlids is what we went through here 5 years ago. The more that experienced cichlid keepers get into lfs, importing & phase these guys out the better.

There are about 800 different species of cichlids in Lake Malawi alone, so many hundred of km's long of lake, multiple islands, bays..... Now over the millions of years{Lake Malawi is multi millions of years old} you could guess at how many times the water levels have risen & fallen, creating new areas & also letting those of similar species mix back together.

Now even though some share the same genus, even species, some may be seperated by just variances{usually location}. Some of those have evolved unique differences, some just differnet colours, others differing body shape, teeth structure..... Some Pseudotropheus for example scrap algae of rocks, where as some who ended up in sandy bays scrap algae of wood{eg; acei} Some are strictly herbivores{eg; demasonii} others are omnivores.

If you get hold of a book by George.W Barlow about the Evolution of cichlids. The teeth structure is the important part of how African cichlids live & differ from each other, yet the body shape may be the same, very similar.

So in the lake you may get different species in the same area, alot of African cichlids don't have feeding terriorties, only spawing terriorties. So when a female wants to breed she has the option to choose the best male of her species on offer, there are plenty to choose from. Males always want to breed, :roll: the best have nice breeding caves, pits, rocks..... Remember in the wild a female will spawn when she wants to, big difference to in a tank. Some females will visit multiple males, some only breed with one male...even amongst mbunas, the different species all breed differently. The question you{tanksman} asked the other night didn't have an easy answer. Glad to see you did find some info, sweet.

Some will cross breed, if you look at some species the difference in variants is minimal. So they either were just the one species, seperated by difference in lake levels or some may have got to another bay next door.... or when the water levels vary they may then even re-mix. Will they breed against each other depends varies factors. Some of the different variances have minor differences, Aceiis again as an example. In one bay the fish is black with a yellow edging on the fins, the next bay black fish blue markings in the head with white fins, another blueish fish yellow fins...we have 3 different varieties in Aussie, I think there is about 15 types all up.

In Lake Victoria some species are cross breeding as of polution, the water in one part of the lake is clouding up, around one major river. Some haplochromis species are very similar, the females can't tell if the male is their species or not as they can't notice the difference in colour.

Then again an accident in Lake Tangy where a boat carrying a species of Tropheus sank. Where it sank, there were already a another different species of Tropheus. Unfortunitly these species are breeding with each other, :oops: So to answer Tanksman question, some in the wild will breed back against each other given the chance, some don't. Alot that are very similar are seperated by deep water, river, bays.... alot of predators live in deeper water.

In a fish tank, well we know that Protomelas & Aulonocara females will cross breed at a drop of a hat. So those species are always not to be mixed. As for mbuna, they will breed with similar colour/types if the same species isn't available. I have mixed yellow, with aceiis, with demasoni, with mbambas....not a problem{touch wood} As long as a have a good male of each who holds there own, there is room for them to get along....then I haven't had a problem. {tw}

Yet in display tanks, some mbuna like electric yellows, pulu points{red zebs}...the males & females of the species look the same. So if you accidently get a female of one, then with no other option it may breed with a member of another species, especially if they look similar. Blue zebs used to be common here in Aussie, only the odd shop has them now. Most people here have clicked they are a hybrid, so refuse to buy them, hence they are dying out. Unfortunitly, you can see plenty of Protomela cross breed in shops. These are harder to tell as they are all silver at a small size, it's just the subtle differences in markings that give it away. Yes I am one of the types that tries to bring up how thats not right, but you can guess what the reaction is I get.{I do it politely :lol: } Aulonocara's{peacocks} are very hard to tell to, well females are impossible, males well easier once they start to colour up.

Scientific names are a must over here{anywhere}, easier to buy direct imports{if properly named}or from a very reputable breeder.

I hope this helps, sorry if it rambled on. :roll:

Frenchy

[Tanksman]

Here in Aussie we seem to be about 5 years in front when it comes to cichlids

Well gee one more reason to jump ship I reckon. After the week I have had at work and and and .... keep an eye on trademe. Besides this flat is getting too small for my addiction. Selling up is probably an easier option than shifting.

[ryanjury]

Yeah saw the giraffe you put up but missed out.. I was keen on it I asked if you would hold it for 2 weeks... What happened you getting rid of everything or just a few?

[herefishiefishie]

We don't have as good a catfish collection here, if its's any consolation.

We don't have that many on the import list, glad there are some dedicated people who somehow get species into the country.

Frenchy