acanthurus

Sorry jc I think I'm having trouble understanding your angle on this discussion. As far as the question of who would argue against the ban of reptiles in NZ - us! I thought that is the point of this entire thread. Are you saying we might as well just give up? As for the system in Aus, every state sets its own laws, for example until recently it was illegal to keep any reptiles in WA. What I was saying is if they can manage to have their own independent system in the NT, with such a small population, then surely we could manage one here. Whilst they have a few keepers now, when they started there were no amateur keepers at all, so we would actually be starting at a higher level than them.

Was wondering if someone was going to read it that way, but the simple answer is no There are records of the being here in the wild in the 70's and record of them being in captivity after that. Given that they are a relatively long lived animal it would not be surprising at all if there are still some floating around. Whether there are some in the wild is obviously a matter of conjecture. If there are any left it would most probably be a remnant population that will almost certainly die out in time.

Sorry jc but your post seems a little ill educated. Im not sure which species of monitor you are talking about that lays massive clutches, but maybe you could enlighten me. For the most part they are actually relatively difficult to breed, have prolonged incubation times and small clutches (in particular the likely species we have over here - storrs, goulds, ridge tailed, and lace). They are slower to mature and require more specialised keeping. To then go on and say most are in it for the money is unfair to say the least. If they were to come out i think they will be expensive ($10000 is a little excessive depending on the species), but if that is the going price then so be it. If you don't want to pay that much for one then don't. I would love to have a monitor and not "just for the money", as I'm sure would many keeperes in NZ. To be honest your post doesn't strike me as written by someone who has a passion for herps. If you don't then thats your choice, but its a little unfair to make broad sweeping comments about us as a collective. Your comments on the economics of a reptile permit system are also a little off target. You imply that there is one permit system in place for the whole of Australia. Did you realise that every state and territory has its own laws and system in place. A good example is the NT - much smaller population than NZ, many many more species on their list than we are ever likely to have and the added work of co-ordinating imports and exports with other states. Despite all they have a very effective system in place. I must also pick up on your comments about the white's tree frogs. Do you realise they have been extensivley released here over a century ago and in all likelyhood have failed to establish. Whilst the odd red ear might end up in the local pond there is no chance them establishing here because they cannot breed. It could easily be argued that much larger threats come from other hobbies in NZ, including aquaculture, dogs, cats and birds. Why arn't we all pushing to have them under lock and key? Sorry to come down on you so hard and you are more than welcome to your own opinion. However throw away comments and generalisations deserve to be picked up on.

I think both sides would have to be prepared to make some sacrifices. Maybe it would be a stretch to expect compensation for confiscated animals. For example, how does one determine the value of an animal?

Do you have a tropical aquarium? If you do take them out and put them in a sealed container with a 50% water to vermiculite mixture by weight and float it in the aquarium until you get an incubator.

Another thing to keep in mind which has really worked in the systems favor in Australia, is being openly involved in the hobby with animals you can freely show off, advertise and sell, and is a great incentive for keeping on the right side of the law.

Agreed, as noted in the provisors above... There will always be those who choose to operate outside the system. My suggestion would be to use money from fees to icrease the policing and the potential charges.

I think the chances of them ever allowing the importation of new species is remote to say the least. I mean after all, why should they? As pointed out above there are many diseases out there tht affect reptiles (for example OMPV), and we really have no idea what would happen if they appeared over here. In the end I would even argue that it could be considered a little selfish for us to expect imports to happen (as much as I would love to see some new species). From the point of view of what is already here however it is a different matter. In an ideal world we would have a law abiding and trusting group of reptile keepers, and a government agency that was proactive about working with keepers to acheive the best outcome. Unfortunatly however this is obviously not the case. In this ideal world I could see the most effective means of progressing from where we are now to be an amnesty. Basically all keepers would be given a short time i.e. 2 months, to declare what they have without any fear of reprisal. In turn with this information on hand the government agency would risk assess each species in a realistic and fair manner (i.e. not just using it as an excuse to confiscate and destroy evrything they find). Obviously there will be some definate no-no's, for example a cane toad, which will be destroyed without prosecution. Once they have finalised the list they make a database and register the animals that are here and initiate a licencing system, similar to what is in Australia, where all bearths death and sales are recorded. Sales will only be allowed to other licenced keepers. The beauty of this system is that after the initial hassle of getting it in place it makes it all very simple to enforce. If you are found with an unknown species or an unregistered animal it will be by definition illegal and they will be free to charge without any legal doubts. I would love to see something like this in place but given the provisors above I cant see it happening...

Hehe, fair point Navarre. I would also like a couple of those tortoises if they ever became available Truth is though that I cant see any import standards happening anytime soon either, and I guess from their point of view what reason would they have to issue one?

Henward mate, please don't read into this post as a personal attack and please try to accept it for how it is meant. I admit I was wrong in my previous post to say that you were claiming to be 'Robin Hood' as I agree this is not what you were trying to say. I'm sure you yourself will admit you have been trying to poke a few people with sticks, and in the end you have to expect a reaction. I know that you have a passion for the hobby, as we all do, and therefore we must share some similar thoughts. People will often take exception if you try to prove a point by getting high and mighty, especially when in the end you seem to have basically the same beliefs. You have made a point of shaming those who have made some money out of their hobby, when you yourself admit that you would have done so as well, given the chance. You made a point of shaming those who have been burnt for pushing the boundaries in this hobby, when you must admit that you have also tried to purchase animals that are not exactly considered green lights legally. I'm sure if you had succeeded in finding anythiing unusual you would have pushed the same boundaries yourself. I'm not saying you were looking to do anything by definition illegal. I'm saying that you to have been an active participant legal no-mans land that is our hobby currently. I'm sure you can agree that if we choose to build a bridge and get over our little differences then maybe we could focus more clearly on the topics that are affecting our hobby today. I am more than happy to and hope you feel the same way, and hopefully prevent threads descending into this in future.

Sorry once again, but can you please point out where anyone (bar you) have claimed to be a 'robin hood'?

Sorry Henward but isn't your post above a complete backflip on what you were saying in previous posts? If you have no problem with people making some money to fund their hobby then why do you keep bringing it up?

To be honest, no. But if the day did ever come where they try to shut the hobby down, showing that we have been engaging in active and constructive conversation about this issue over time would be useful evidence in our favor. Also there are many people out there and maybe someone else can come up with an idea, or be inspired to act on behalf of the rest of us indolent keepers.

Sorry mate but your logic(?) is still not adding up. You say there is no money to be made yet also state that the going price is currently $800. Even if you had just one pair that is a considerable amount of money, yet I don't know of any professional bearded dragon breeders. If it really is as simple as buy - breed - sell, then why havn't more poeple including yourself made small fortunes. The answer is that it may all look that easy from the outside looking in, but it never is a simple as you think. Anyway you don't have to take my word for it, just have a read of the posts by some the more large scale breeders above. And to repeat what I said earlier, what is your issue with the whole money thing anyway. Some people made a small amount of money but I maintain that no one got rich. If you were not able to afford them when they came out then as you said you just have to wait until the price drops. If you did succeed in sourcing the salamanders, monitors and unusal frogs that you were looking for I'm sure you to would have charged a premium when they first entered the market.

Wow, Thanks Henward i never looked at it that way, you really do make it all so simple. So if we go by your maths and lets take the staring date as 2000 and I will go with your statement that they breed at 2 years have 30 eggs each and lets make it simple and go with an average price of $1000 each. Lets also take the assumption that 50% will be female. So, lets say there were 4 females to start with and each has 2 clutches a season. Therefore that would make 240 babies first season and the same the second season. There would be 124 egg laying female in the third season meaning 7440 babies. If you carry on with this maths out until today then there should be many billions of dragons, but lets round it down by a few billion for arguements sake and say there are one billion dragons. Taking each dragon to be sold at $1000, then $1 000 000 000 000 has been made from dragons so far in NZ, or about 10 times our GDP over the last 10years. No wonder I see so many reptile keepers driving around in lambo's. This is the problem with making silly assumptions based on limited actual knowledge. Henward once again the intent of your post seems to be more to tar someone elses name than to add anything to the conversation. You have been in this hobby for a few years now and I'm sure even you will admit that you have at times tried to push the boundaries. My point here is not take aim at you but suggest that maybe you should accept that we are all basically in the same boat. While some people in the hobby have been more successful than others why should this be wrong? Is this really the main issue with the hobby at the moment or are we going to let our insecurities about other peoples success get in the way of the actual issue at hand - namely the threat that we will be shut down altogether.