Varanophile
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Posts posted by Varanophile
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there is zero point in arguing or debating with MAF... no ifs and no buts... Want these reptiles so bad? I suggest you look at stumping up the cash on getting IHS completed.
Or get a containment licence/zoo licence... import the reptiles with a IHS then apply through erma for a general release... both routes will cost $$$
I bet people in Auz or America would kill to keep some of our natives found in our backyards so its not a one way st
Guess its better to protect what we have then spend millions trying to fix a stuff up...
I don't think anyone is arguing or debating with MAF here- people are just pointing out the flaws in the system and debating how the system can be changed.
Getting IHS's completed ain't going to accomplish jack- we've covered that already.
ERMA/MAF don't just hand out zoo licenses...you would need to be a zoo, not a hobbyist.
People in the US and Europe do keep our natives...best chance they have IMO in terms of some of species not going extinct. Harlequin gecko's are CITES 1 but there is noone keeping them here as DOC doesn't give licenses to keep them. Too many native reptiles are on the edge but the native reptile hobby is pretty small here due to the restrictive regulations...we are not doing a great job protecting what we have here....any of you exotic keepers have experience with the native stuff?
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could you try the argument if we can have eastern water dragons,why not jackson`s chameleons?
15 years ago both Jackson's and Water Dragons were only in zoos, so yeah...good point why are water dragons in public hands but jackson's not. The problem is not just regulations that don't make sense but the inconsistency in the way the rules are applied.
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although I can clearly see the reason for no amphibians being imported (global fungus epidemic), why can't we get chameleons?
or why can't we those that are already here.
Prob. because they are a pest in hawaii- but anyone with any knowledge will argue against their ability to naturalise here.
You can keep Jackson's chameleon in southern france which has similar seasons and temp to here and there has been no problem with them naturalising.
There are some in public anyway I hear ex WLG zoo....same way the leo's were ex Otorohanga Kiwi House.
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MAF are moving towards being more advisory focused, but solely approval authorities? No.
They do actually do plenty of research, see Technical papers. Usually literary reviews but none the less research used to develop policies. Absolutely the forms and other work needs to be put forward to them in order for new policy to be developed in the area we would want (ie. a herptile IHS), meanwhile they have plenty other areas to tackle and many other IHSs for which there is demand.
I don't think its fair to say MAF are lazy, our wants are just not a priority.
You seem pretty on to it Exotherman....so:
How do you think 'we' can change the current policies on reptile keeping.
Why are tropical fish and non tropical allowed to be imported...surely white cloud minnows could establish here?
When there are as many reptile keepers as fish keepers is that the point there will be change?
If we can prove having a system will generate income for the authorities would they do it?
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All my leo's bask in the early morning and late evening. I provide the lighting and they use it.
I believe that they know their requirements far more then we do. I offer calcium with d3 and without it. as well as other vitamins with and without d3. They very very rarely eat from the d3 dishes. I try to keep the diet as varied as possible, including insects that are active during the day and night.
At night I provide reptile one moonlight tubes, the uvb is next to nothing but still present as verified by repti-one australia. They use it most nights so it must have some effect.
I love watching that tail whip from side to side as a cricket or cockroach is about to loose its life.
:gigl:
Wow, that is a really impressive system. You think thay sense which powder has the D3? when you say you provide lighting you mean fluoro tubes?
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The licensing system, although a good idea for larger countries, probably wouldn't work because the numbers of people getting one in NZ wouldn't pay for the cost of running the system.
I don't agree. Take Perth in W.A as as example. 1.8 million people in total. Prob the same ammount of keepers as NZ.
They have this system:
You need a license to keep reptiles/frogs, you pay a fee each year for it, around $50.00
License can be class 1, 2 or 3. Class depends on the difficulty of the species to keep. If you wnat to move up a class you need to have had a license for the previous class for at least 12 months....or get someone with that class of license to vouch for you.
You need to file a return every year detailing the species you have, the sexes if known, and any births and deaths.
Excessive deaths then you lose your license.
When you sell an animal you fill out paperwork with license numbers etc for the buyer, and the buyer fill out paperwork for you and you both send in
The authority takes a percentage, say 5% of each sale and they have the right to inspect your animals at any time during reasonable hours.
This system not only pays for itself, but it funds research and conservation too.
We don't know the internal systems of MAF, it's a pretty big ministry. They don't ask for funding, they get assigned a portion of budget.
Not true. MAF has to be seen to be prudent about working within their budget. The budget is assigned based on spend the previous year. If MAF has a number of investigations that can be seen to be in the public interest and they cost lots of money then it helps them secure additional funding the following year.
One person who doesn't know how maf works will get nothing done. It takes a large organisation eg. one NZ organisation wanted to bring in dung beetles from overseas to do what dung beetles do. The university research said that we already have ~11 species of native dung beetle, research said it's pointless to bring the exotics in. Federated farmers and other large organisations objected to the exotics. Maf reluctantly said yes. Now we have an invasive exotic dung beetle that isn't doing what the original group wanted and it's now competing with the native.
Agreed. Don't think that MAF is there to do a good job. Like all government org's it is political....full of back stabbing and dodgy goings on in the name of ladder climbing. They have planted evidence, they have lied under oath in court. MAF is all about the guys at the top and being seen to do a good job- it's all PR. There are plenty of smart people with good intentions that join and then leave after being disillusioned by the crap pay and politicing. I know at least 3. The top guys are on good pay and they are the 'shot callers'...and they did not get there because they wrote some mean as research papers. The ONLY way MAF will listen to us if if we have enough hobbyists and can exert some lobbying pressure. I will happily supply Peter Jackoson or Kim Dot Com a lizard for free to this end.
It's not rocket science, no kidding, it's ecological science, which works on a much bigger scale with far more variables and less known about it.
You probably need a degree to work for MAF on anything you want to influence.
Is there a system and clear cut regulations on what reptiles you can keep in NZ..............NO Yes, it's called a whitelist, If it's on the list you can have it.
If you consider all the undiscovered species and the ones that haven't been researched for their effect on the NZ environment, It's far easier to whitelist.
Whitelist...bollocks...prove me wrong tho.... The only list that has been around is this 'unofficial list' from ERMA, May 2005. This is a draft document and is in its original form to the best of my knowledge:
Then, on Jan 4th this year, this came out, it is from the Animal Import Group, which is a division of MAF...I am guessing that MAF proper is unaware of it and did not approve it- its contradicts everything they have said to date.....but now its out in th epublic domain (so sorry guys)
To put it in context this is the email, edited (2 names left out as well as the sender's name), that came with it. The sender is from an NZ Zoo, which is probably why he got the info as the 'walls did noy go up':
"Good afternoon Blah and Blah
I would just like to say thank you both for your help with this. Sorry it has taken so long.
EPA have sent the attached document to me, based on the import permits we were provided with.
They agree that there can be individuals of the species listed in the letter that are legally held in New Zealand, in private hands. Please do note though that this does not mean that every individual animal of a given species in the country will necessarily be here legally as there could be some that had been smuggled in and not associated with the import permit from the early 1970s.
Thanks once again"
Who should be in charge of creating one............................MAFAnd universities and DOC
Has it been suggested...............................YES
Would it be hard to do...........................NOExtremely, Each species has to be checked out
Don't agree. There is plenty of study that has been done on most species of repltile on both those lists above. The key thing is can they breed in the wild here...just look at the required incubation temps and get NZ's soil temp data from NIWA- they have all that info. Obviously even though salties can't brred here they can't be let it- common sense applies though.
In terms of importing new stuff, rather than not knowing how to test it and what to test it for, just copy what other countries do:
Create a list of pathogens on reptiles based on country of origin...NOT on species. Any animal that comes from a country gets tested for the diseases from that country and is quarantined first- WE ALREADY DO THIS WITH FISH!!! The importer pays for this...Not like currently where you stump up 20K for a risk assessment which gets declined and MAF keeps your coin.
There is no reason we should not be allowed iguanas, day geckos, tokay geckos..........NONE
MAF has made Leopard Torts 'containment only'...even though the amle that was donated to the zoo to breed with the females was donated from a member of the NZ public. MAF's reasoning is that the females were seized from a smuggler so could have diseases.....WELL test them then!!!!
In recent times the Leopard Torts are in public hands and MAF has not jumped on it...........probably waiting until they have been sold on Trade Me for a few months..then they can have an expensive round up of them...sound familiar- iguanagate.
Shinglebacks are containment only too says MAF.....ooops noone told the Import Animal Group tho...bugger- (see the tiliqua rugosus on there)
Would it take long/cost alot of money.............NO x 2It would cost hundreds of millions to create a blacklist.
Not if you do it as above. Sure MAF agrees with you though.
What can we do to change it........................bitch about it on the forum
Or go to Uni, do postgrad and help with the research and get something done.Won't work as per the reasons above. If enough of you agree that we need change then we can make it happen...it'll be a long road though. MAF needs to be pressured to create a sysytem so that we all know where we stand. How many of you had your iguanas killed? Do you realise the exact same thing could have happened with your leopard geckos....that is until the above list from Jan 4th was made public....they have been in grey area until now.
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still on the whine
Klass...that is a good one.
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am I?
This is sort of the point I was making. By your own logic in this comment, you are contradicting your comments on the first page (that a bluetongue and cat should not consort).Anyway I'm off to bed.
The point is..DON"T DO THINGS PURELY FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT THAT RISK THE HEALTH OF YOUR ANIMAL
It's not about natural order or anything 'high brow'.
Good Night.
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Then i would like to know how photos of your brother collection, "is advancing knowledge of the hobby, improving the care of reptiles and sharing opinions."
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Something may be popular worldwide, but if worldwide is Asia and the US, they have a large illegal pet trade. Basically, if they are a breach of CITES you can forget about it.
Anyway, no amphibians will be imported while there is a fungus killing them off world wide as we don't want to kill our 3 natives which are endangered as it is.
There is also the risk that people use them for their toxin and harm people. Even if they are harmless in captivity there isn't any assurance that they can't sequester their toxin from an imported food.
If you got the risk assessment you would get objection from the zoo's and universities across New Zealand.
My suggesting Devo is don't waste your money and get prosecuted.
Varanophile, if you think MAF are inherently lazy and not the brightest, you do better, with the budget the government gives them it's easier to decline an application than spend thousands on a few frogs.
Create a licensing system....or any system. People pay for their permits. Some of that money can go into conservation of natives.
We know where we stand, they know where they stand.
The lack of system means lots of work for MAF, but then they like that, looks good when they ask for funding.
I don't want to be part of MAF, I want to raise awareness of the stupidity of the system and put pressure on them to change.
It's not rocket science.
Prob not a good idea just quietly for me to apply for a job at MAF.
Is there a system and clear cut regulations on what reptiles you can keep in NZ..............NO
Should there be one................................YES
Who should be in charge of creating one............................MAF
Has it been suggested...............................YES
Would it be hard to do...........................NO
Would it take long/cost alot of money.............NO x 2
What can we do to change it........................bitch about it on the forum
They do read this forum
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Then why do you keep pets? By your own standards, you're a hypocrite :facepalm:
I keep them because I want to know more about them, and I enjoy it.
I keep them as I make money from it.
I enjoy helping people realise that reptiles are not scary- that's why I do Kid's expo's and help people out.
I look after my stuff...well.
If I need advice i ask for it.
Nothing wrong with doing things that benefit me and the animals I keep.
There is something wrong with people who do things that make them feel good without any benefit to the animal....
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you seem to have made this whole thread about you
I will try to be more constructive oh wise one :sage:
No I won't give you advice on your natives and goldfish.
Importing reptiles? I never asked about it, and what does that have to do with the welfare of the animals.
Whole thread about me?
You seem to be missing the point.
How many times have you asked for advice on the forum..seem to hand out alot of advice, but then again you are a sage :sage:
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:rotf:
yep, they had more coin than me. Judge admitted MAF's case full of holes.
shame, could have made some money off those frogs.
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What what what what?? :facepalm:
Try and follow your train of thought.................
People used to eat people........should we be talking...do we eat sharks or do they eat us....
If a cat scares a blue tongue and noone knows...did it really happen?
if someone does something dumb and noone else points it out..is it dumb?
Or does it say something about the people on the forum??
Your comment is ridiculous- no offence intended.
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a problem and a possible reason why all in one
other possible reasons too. hence the question...
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It was (and is still) a rather personal attack. If they/you felt so strongly about a reptile on a cat's stomach, constructive criticism may have gone down better.
just saw your signature:
Giant bullies need high salt content in the water, so prob not good to keep with Cran's bullies which are entirely freshwater.
And having koura in a 4 foot tank will stress the daylights out of your bullies.
Maybe looks good....but it's about the animals, not you.
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It was (and is still) a rather personal attack. If they/you felt so strongly about a reptile on a cat's stomach, constructive criticism may have gone down better.
at least on the forum we can express our opinions....unlike, say a blue tongue on a cat.
I thought this forum was for advancing knowledge of the hobby, improving the care of reptiles and sharing opinions. The first post in this thread does none of these. I said why I thought it was dumb, and then I tried to take the edge off my comments- it was not an apology.
Too many of you try to anthropomorphosize your pets.....it's about the animal, not you!
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This could be the start of a good discussion on frog importation, and some interesting points have been raised already.
Livingart & Nymox have both mentioned that developing a set health standards is required. Given that Dart Frogs are very popular word-wide, I would guess health standards have been done in other countries & perhaps these could be adapted for NZ without us having to recreate the wheel.
Nymox, you mention that you’re working on health standards for leopard gecko’s…but they’re in NZ already…so how did that work out :dunno:
Is a containment facility the same thing as a quarantine facility? If so I might have to start talking to some of the current fish / reptile importers…
Hey Alan, hmmm…Dart Frogs or ET, tough choice
Health standards for ET, now that would be a task I’d pass on to the mother in law.
How do other countries get to keep Darts if they're threatened? Dendroboard forum seems to be one of the most popular for Dart Frog discussions...and it has some 12,000 members! WOW... thats a lot of people talking about frogs.
If I do manage to get a good deal on freight for Darts Varanophile, I’ll drop the komodos off at your place…how many do you want?
What if Darts Frogs were to become available in NZ, who would keep them? I'm in :thup:
MAF are inherently lazy and not the brightest....still got me tho :oops:
They will not do anything that means more work for them, or requires them to have specialist knowledge- 8 of the grren iguanas seized and euthanized were chinese water dragons that were wrongly identified by the MAF reptile expert....that's like a fish expert misidentifying a clownfish as a goldfish because they both have a lovely orange colour.
Pay your 20k for a risk assessment on poison darts, get it peer reviewed by experts that agree with you............and your application to import will be denied as they are still a disease risk due to chytrid fungus.
The technical reason for nuking the iguanas after allowing their sale for so long was that they had a pathogen 'not known on New Zealand' previously- Mt Pleasnat Strain Salmonella.............ssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone it was found in Otago skinks years ago..........we need to justify our budget to the Minister.
There are NO records for stuff that came in legally in the 60's and 70's- MAF biffed them or lost them...iguanas, beardeds, leo's, turtles, tortoises, shinglebacks...
There are records for the legal importation of less than 10 of the nearly 200 species of exotic birds in N.Z.
Technically you could be persecuted for owning a canary and have it seized- there is no import permit of health standard.
MAF could have easily copied the permit system in Aus and released a list of what is allowed.
WHY ARE FRILL NECK LIZARDS ON THE LIST OF ALLOWED REPTILES TO BE IN PUBLIC HANDS IN NZ????????????????????
(Taken in Western Australia honestly Orifacer)
Any of you guys seen em?....or did they discover an old permit for their importation.
Weird, but then they did have capybaras on the last list of reptiles.
Winners :thup:
Yeah I'll take a couple of komodo's and these if you find em...
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The experiment is already being carried out. Some people feed calcium with D3 and others feed without D3
I raised a number of young ones to adulthood using calcium in a dish without D3 and not added to food and they all turned out to be healthy breeding adults. A couple of their young developed metabolic bone disease so then I swithed to having a dish of calcium with D3 and adding it also to their live food. Have had no problems with young this year and it is almost finished. You pays your money and takes your pick.
Are you feeding just one type of food?
Leo's get their D3 from their food...apparently
If you give them D3 calcium and food with D3 it can cause big problems.
I have mate that gave his beardeds D3 and put them outside. It paralysed them. Their movements are still twitchy as, which is ironic as this is a symptom of not enough D3.
If your young got metabloic bone disease then there must have been a reason- it is either caused by not enough calcium, or not enough D3 or both.
This year I have half a dozen emerge from eggs with twisted back legs, which have thankfully come right...until now I have made no distinction between calcium with or without D3...I just buy whatever is available.
What do you other leo breeders use and what have you seen?
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Pretty weak apology :-?
not an apology. :thup:
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Actually it's quite simple to do. You just put some skin out from different reptiles and expose to UVB, and measure the result of how much 7-dehydrocholesterol gets converted to previtamin D3. From memory, this was done for humans by using foreskin obtained from circumcisions, and comparing D3 synthesis at different latitudes.
But as you say, if the nocturnal reptiles get a bit of UVB, they don't need supplementation.
Anyone want to volunteer some of their animals?
would be good to find out
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My understanding was that nocturnal lizards are very efficient in synthesizing D3 from the sparse UVB exposure they get. So, they also will require UVB lighting.
There is that theory but most of the experts say:
Nocturnal reptiles can absorb D3 from their prey animals.
Diurnal can't.
Can't be sure until someone spends millions on examining metabolic pathways in reptiles...which aint likely.
Bottom line...don't feed vitamin D to your leopards.
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In fact he was the one that walked on to her belly. Also my cat does not care about him. when something like that happens i a right there as you can see by the hand. When i had him out on the bed she jumps up sees him and jumps down.You guy seam to yell almost animal abuse.yet how is it stressed when he walks on of it own accord and the cat was in no harm as when he got off, she jumped down and then lick her self and walked off NOT RAN . And the lizard is always on a person. I take it my blue tongue wellfare as number 1 but You cant expect that they are never going to meet face to face wthout the cage as i have him out every day and she also what cuddles. And i have found it to be a good thing as the cat see him in he cage walking around they just take one took and walk away or go back to sleep same as when he is walking around anywere.But then i guess when kitten have been found sleeping with dogs and a dog feeding kitten Must make you guy faint :slfg: You should go on youtube there a blue tongue that even steals the cats food while the cat is trying to eat and the person just say the cat just waits till it has finished then carrys on eating I think like living art said stop conjecturing and maybe think this is a rare photo opportunity and nothing more .lets try my animal abuse theory
These picture may be dirturbing to some viewer and make you faint.
And this is what Varanophile and repto were like after viewing the pictures
Ha ha ha. Very good. I'll pull my head in now. You obviously know what you are doing....but some dumb-ss looking at the forum will copy you with his leopard gecko and his moggie, I just don't see the poinit in doing it and writing a thread about it.
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save on freight though, if you bring over with some komodo's
Why no Dart Frogs in NZ?
in Reptiles and Amphibians
Posted
Most of them are very easy to keep and they do well in captivity. Do you have any experience with them- what have you based your opinion on?