Wayne

Sounds good Warren! they'll come out sparkling clean. but yeah...i hope i'm wrong on this. imagine if the stuff was perfectly alright, n u chuck it away n replace it with immature stuff that adds extra cost to the hobby...

Cheers mitch... yeah, calcium mainly increases the hardness of the water. Some cichlids do prefer hard water n may benefit from it( probably fontosas). Calcium is also important in osmoregulation across the gills. But generally speaking, adding calcium probably does more harm than good.....too much calcium = v. hard water = calcium crystals in the kidneys..how common this is i don't know, but it's well known in salmonids. tapwater usually contains enough calcium for most species. anyone heard of solar salts?

yeah, if a problem does indeed occur, that'll b the best explaination: .....organic matter etc that builds up.... but what about in nature? organic debri will eventually b broken down.....we're talkin about microscopic stuff....furthermore, ammonia mayb released in the process, providing more substrate for the good bugs.. i'm still skeptical about this guys. As long as we remove the visible debri regularly during filter maintenance, i doubt changing any part of the media will do anything at all...comments? experiences? perhaps a study on this has already been done...

Just a side-track from Kellz's post, does anyone know why it's generally recommended( on the product label) that biological media be changed every once in a while( as part of filter maintenance)?? it doesn't make sense ......as long as u rinse n ensure no obstructions etc, why do u have to replace it? can they justify the risk of ammonia problems etc? does it progressively wear down n experience a decrease in the surface area/pores ?? or does it become obstructed microscopically with debri?? surely the bugs will take care of this..... i reckon they're just trying to make a profit out of this...what do u reckon?

hmmm. i've been depending on a 404 for gezzzz..at least a couple of yrs. no major complains really, works great....except it does chatter for a while when reassembled...due to the air i guess. this usually goes away with a few violent shakes. turning it off n then on in rapid successions does help too

Hi Midas, I've used Selleys ( window n glass) to build from scratch my 5 footer a couple of yrs ago. I've also used it to patch up an 8 footer more recently. no problems ever since.....both 10 mm thick glass. might b a good idea to consult the professionals as goldie suggested:D

hmmmm cheers Andrew, guess u learn something new everyday i guess silicates may increase the amount of inorganic suspended solids in the water( it's usually clay n mud in aquacultures that r responsible), leading to problems like gill clogging as mentioned, n even clogging of biofilters. however, i still wonder how significant this is at the usual salt doses we use. Also, suspended solids usually have to b big enough to b grossly visible to exert a sig effect on the gills etc...anyone with more info on silicates? I won't underestimate the dangers of YPS. It's in virtually every textbook, but i must agree i havn't heard of any toxicities associated with supermart salt use. Perhaps they're just not as widespread as in the past. U also need light to release the cyanide gas....another factor to consider.

Thanks Bill yes, believe it or not, i'm picking up heaps of stuff from u guys. Been reading previous posts etc. Ask me about breeds, gadgets, breeding etc n i'll b totally lost. :-? i have absolutely no idea about that 'guess what fish this is' game u guys have.. lol. anyway, nice description. It's quite a big focal area for an angel. one thing though, is it raised, even or slightly depressed? Also, any scratching/rubbing observed? why do u think it's gettin better? size reduction? what about appetite? any changes? what do u feed it? any deaths from tankmates since a yr ago? who else is with the angel? how big is the tank? have u noticed any illthrifty ones with flattened bellies? any tankmates with kinked spines? any ones with dropsy( popeye, abdominal distention, pine-cone scales?) Any new fishes introduced from 6 mths ago? well, sorry for all the questions, but they'll help us bro. If we can rule out water and dietary problems, then it leaves us with the wound itself. If the wound is kinda depressed, or used to b, then it's most likely an ulcer. If u see an ulcer in a fish, always think TB. Other bugs can give ulcers. anchor worms can leave ulcers after they detach( i've never seen it in NZ yet). A nasty protozaon known as tetrahymena leaves deep sores n penetrates into muscles in varous fishes, esp guppies. some spp. of Aeromonas bacteria can give so called furuncles/ulcer like lesions in esp goldfish n koi. it can happen in other species too.finally, Our whole list of usual skin bugs can produce ulcers in severe infections. Well, we can do skin scrapes etc to check for any skin bugs, this will rule out obvious parasites, but we might miss the bacterial organisms. alternatively, we can do salt dips as a therapeutic trial thingy. if it works,, actually, most of these r susceptible to salt dips, except TB, then we know it was one of these organisms... anyway, i would do a salt dip, and possibly anesthetise it and apply some topical iodine/betadine. maintain good water quality n diet, n give it a couple of weeks. If it doesn't heal in a mth or so, we can try other drugs, but we then have to seriously consider TB. u might want to isolate it at the moment just to b safe, esp if u have valuable fish with him/her. check your PM bro

ermm Goldie, just wondering where she got the penicillin from.. penicillins are virtually useless in fish. Most bacterial infections in fish r gram negative n thus resistant to penicillins. u also have to give it via injections to b of any real use.. cotton wool lesions maybe fungal. they may also b due to columnaris( the bacteria responsible for most cases of finrot), or a group of protozoans known as sessile ciliates. cotton wool lesions may also b confused with slime, plagues, u name it.... salt baths r probably the best bet. check with her about the saline tx. she might have used too low a dose, or insufficient time.... perhaps more important is ammonia n nitrites. penicillins r really potent against the good bugs in the filter...she might have to do water changes etc n monitor these levels.

yeah, that's a good point Bill. we often fail to see how easy it is to transmit bugs around, esp if u have multi-tanks...n valuable fish! my community tank was previously plagued by TB. lost heaps of fish over a long period of time. i was extra careful with equipment etc. Bleech is a cheap n effective disinfectant. only disadvantage is that it corrodes metal( nets). managed to confine the infection to the community tank. I've since culled all the fishes, thoroughly disinfected the tank, n it's now housing goldfishes....no signs of TB for over 3 mths... think it's been eradicated( fingers crossed)

I definitely agree with u Bill with regards to fish clients turning up at vet clinics.....It's just not gonna happen at your average small animal clinic in NZ. however, as Derek has said, QUOTE: Many Vets are now opening "pet shops" in association with their surgeries. So their assistants may well be called upon to handle not only problems traditionally associated with Vets but also the handling and care of fish as well as queries from customers that are usually associated with pet shops. I know quite a few vet clinics selling fishes( mostly goldfish n sometimes tropical)as part of their retail outlet, together with petfood, chains, leads etc.... Now who's gonna take care of these tanks in the clinic? vet nurses have to know a thing or 2 about basic fish care. well, in my opinion, the 'ideal' vet nurse would b like the 'ideal' lfs person, giving sound n practical advice to customers on preventative n management stuff. i wouldn't expect our nurses to know n recognise n treat fish diseases etc. let alone the vet....These will come with experience n self-learning.... Don't forget Derek that u want to hold on to your audience. It's quite a big list of stuff to cover in only 2 hrs......i reckon u should focus strongly on the basics of water, nutrition and equipment. These would b most beneficial to vet nurses

Hey Minch, don't worry too much bro. they wouldn't directly harm your fishs---unless they r leeches( unlikely). however, such 'environmental' worms often indicate possible water quality problems. mainly too much organic matter. have u got plants? rotting vegetation? left-over food? thick layer of gravel/sand.. do u siphon the bottom during water changes? how's the filter? how often do u clean it? To b thorough, i would check ammonia n nitrates. they might b elevated due to excess organic matter. Also, check for breathing problems in the ciclids.

yeah, but u 've gotta b careful with supermart salts. besides iodine, a bigger worry is the anti-caking agent in some products..If it contains yellow prusside of soda--sodium ferrocyanate, it might release sufficient cyanide gas when dissolved to kill your fish. Obviously, u've got a safe product Andrew

hmmm. one of my first recollections about fish.... somehow, i had managed to convince mom that i'll do the regular water change for our community tank in the lounge( i was probably about 10) . well, i must have overdone it. Actually caught all the fishes out in a bucket, scrubbed every corner of the tank, did a 90% water change, added all the chemicals etc, n then the fish. man, they didn't survive the next 24 hrs..... so yeah, change = stress. and when the change is too sudden = acute stress response--the body decompensates. Perhaps ammonia might have been a factor too. Yes... everyone else was not too impressed with my enthusiasm.

yeah Ira...if u look at it that way, it seems quite a bit. It's generally safe at 0.1% = 1 g / L for all species. safe up to 0.3% for most species = 3 g / L. some authors n meself have found 0.5% = 5 g / L to b useful in some emergency situations---osmoregulatory failure. Salt baths are worse! u can go up to 30 g /L !! but for only 30 mins max. usually use 15 - 20 g / L. they r extremely good for skin diseases. much safer than formalin. Try rock salt instead of aquarium salt. it's far cheaper. can't remember the last time i got salt from the lfs....

Wondering how many of us regularly use salt during water changes... i've used salt all the time, around 1.5 - 2 g per L, n it's done wonders for me tanks. It's cheap, safe, keeps certain protozoan n bacterial numbers low, aids osmoregulation n perhaps stimulates protective mucus secretion... Although some scaless fish n catfishes r sensitive to salt, 1 g per L is generally safe for all freshwater species.. just wondering if salt at this dose affects the reproductive behaviour of certain fishes..i don't think it does, but correct me if i'm wrong. n how much salt is there in a brackish environment?

Not a lot Midas, not alot.. in fact, we only had a couple of lectures on fish medicine, and a wet-lab involving cytology( microscope, anesthesia etc). That's about it for fish really. we do alot more with birds. A whole series of lectures on chook diseases..plus we currently have a resident avian specialist who takes on regular bird cases from owners, breeders, D.O.C etc. well, guess there's just too much nonfish stuff to know in the first place...

they're most likely gonna b involved in the retail aspect... so definitely conc. on basic management n preventative stuff rather than diseases i reckon....it's quite a bit of info if u havn't had fishes before. like what Rob has suggested, general water quality issues.....talk about N cycle (filtration, , ammonia etc, water changes, new tank syndrome)......temperature, n perhaps pH, hardness if they're still awake. Might b useful to bring along some gadgets....airpimps, heater, dif types of filters. test kits etc Diet? definitely salt uses too. perhaps bring in osmoregulation etc. mention the dangers of various drugs availabe at LFS... n perhaps sum it all up with a step-by-step guide about things to do when setting up a basic aquarium( i reckon this is what most local vet nurses will b doing--giving advise-- if they ever get to deal with fish in the first place) euthanasia, algae control, common diseases etc r definitely useful....i would suggest a handout for future reference to cover these bits....don't forget, most of them havn't got any idea how an aquarium works....u should drill the basics first

Hi guys, i've thought about this one before.. basically, it's not advisable, simply because the nutritional requirements of a fish r extremely different to a dog.. duhhh...surprise!! BUT, if u use it judiciously, it can possibly b useful, esp if the other ingredients in the fish's diet r lacking in certain nutrients. THIS, would b the main purpose or shall we say advantage ot feeding such novel foods--as a supplement of vitamins, minerals etc. Firstly, it's probably better to consider catfood rather than dogroll. cats have a higher requirement for amino acids/protein than dog....it's still not as high as fish, but closer. The geriatric products maybe more suitable, as they have a lower fat content( too much fat n energy is not good for fishes). As long as u limit the amount fed to perhaps 5% of the fish's total dietary intake, there shouldn't b any problems.... i won't go over 5-10% in the long term. The main risk is a toxicity problem with certain minerals or even vitamins. Cats for e.g require high levels of taurine and niacin in their diet. now, i'm not sure how much taurine or niacin fishes in general require, but if fed longterm, it might produce certain side-effects that mayb obvious, or less conspicuous... n we're not just talkin about taurine n niacin, there r heaps of other nutrients that r totally unbalanced.... well, i guess feeding such stuff instead of say beefheart is alot more nutritious( check out the large list of ingredients in dog/catfood). But, it's definitely no replacement for fish food, n should just b treated as a supplement.

Yeah Kellz, don't worry, it happens to all of us. let's see, my latest victim was a red-devil bout 3 wks ago....it got beaten up real bad, n i must have overdosed it with antibiotics........It probably would still b alive had i just left it alone. by the way, definitely recommend the salt dip. might as well treat all 3 comets. it's most likely to b some skin bug slowing down the healing rate since your water n diet is good. yes, we can get fish TB. it's usually relatively mild n rare. if u have cuts or wounds on your fingers/hands, and contact infected aquarium water, u can get so called fish fingers. basically a lumpy nodular growth. there is no cure except surgical excision. it's kinda rare anyway, but just to play safe, try not to do fishy stuff when u've got cuts n wounds on your hands, esp when u've got fish TB confirmed at postmortem.

hmm, 3 mths is quite a while. u'ld expect it to heal by now Kellz. can u tell us more about the tank? who else is in it? like Ira said, we have to rule out trauma. have u seen it being bullied by the others? also, any water parameters? ammonia, nitrite? slightly elevated levels can impede wound healing..... what about diet? low vit C etc can slow the healing process. what do u feed it? how long has it been opened? where do u store it? well, if it's perfectly healthy now, i would do a salt dip just to rule out any skin parasites/bacteria or fungus that mayb impeding its healing. If it still doesn't respond in 2 weeks, and the water, diet n truama has been ruled out, we have to consider using a more potent drug like formalin to rule out other bugs. any nonhealing wounds should elad us to think of fish TB.......let's hope it responds to the salt dips.. check your PM..

Not sure if i can make it Bruce. Probably not actually since exams r on the following wk. Hi Angel 2, yeah...things sometimes go wrong..It probably was some form of communication breakdown too.... The wait-n-see approach is justified for some situations, esp when the next step is costly or invasive to the animal......but yeah, u know, it always appears different on hindsight. :lol:

Sorry to hear that.....

Do not bother replying to this if u havn't done the 'emergency' plan above. just collecting some history stuff to help us narrow down our diagnosis. how big is your tank? when did u first notice the problem? has it progressed since then? did it happen suddenly? i presume he/she is not eating right? any previous problems in the tank? any deaths with your neons over the past? they seem to b esp susceptible to fish TB ( at least the ones in NZ) what sort of filtration do u have? how often do u do water changes? how much each time? what do u add to the water to 'age' it? any recent changes or significant event took place recently? Carly has raised really good points about stressors that might have predisposed to this problem. it's very likely that the recent move/trauma a mth ago played a role in the development of this... Tell us about his/her diet. finally, have a quick scan of his/her body. in particular, conc. on the following areas. Can u see the gills? r they red, or pale red, pink, or brownish, or whitish...with mucus material? check the skin. any areas of cloudiness? any ulcers/depressions/sores? check the fins. check for a distended abdomen. or is it flat? compare it to the other clown. check for pine-cone scales. r they raised? turn off aeration n view from the top. check for popeye. the eyes protrude from the socket. compare both sides to the normal clown. i can't think of anything else... good luck...hope we're not too late.

HI Kellz, hope it's still hanging there... doesn't look too good unfortunately. well, the rapid breathing is probably due to gill problems or osmoregulatory failure.. u should IMMEDIATELY 1) isolate it if possible( in case it's contagious. NOT a must if u havn't got extra equip) 2) provide extra aeration. this might b a life-saver esp if it's coming up to the surface often. an airstone/airpump is probably the safest way to go about doing this. 3) Add aquarium salt or rock salt( not table salt) at 1 generous tablespoon per 10L. 4) perform a 30-40% water change( remember to allow dechlorinator to react for at least 5 mins, then gently add the new water ensuring that it's at the same temp as the tank water... u can take a breath after this n give it some time to stabilise. at this stage, we can't rule out environmental toxins such as ammonia, extreme pH, medications etc, but they r less likely from your water testing results and the fact that the other tank mates r ok. still let's play safe n do the water changes n salt. there r 2 main things to consider. 1) gill infection. numerous causes..mayb fungal, protozoan, flukes etc. there r easy to cure with a salt dip. this would b our next step once it's stabilised in terms of breathing. 2)systemic bacterial infection. might b our usual acute Aeromonas septicaemia, or even possibly TB....u'll need proper antibiotics from the vet, n u might have to inject it..... i reckon u should do the above points, let him/her settle down, then do a salt dip asap...and if he/she doesn't make it, it's most likely a bacterial septicaemia which often kills them rapidly.