How much live rock do you really need?

[wasp]

Are you sure that's the reason corals can stop growing, lack of nutrients in our tanks. I'm not so sure.Layton

That can certainly be a reason. There are many others too.

Eric thinks they do, that's why they can get it from inorganic sources. That's why they actively farm bacteria in their mucus.Layton

BINGO!

[lduncan]

What do you mean bingo? You were disagreeing a second ago.

[wasp]

I mean BINGO! :bounce:

The second part of your second post may represent a break through for you.

Not sure if they "actively farm" the bacteria, they could be there for several reasons. However, as you seem to think so, what would be the advantage to the coral? Another source of nutrient?

[lduncan]

Why is that a breakthrough for me?

[wasp]

What would be the advantage to the coral?

[lduncan]

Food of course. I may have already posted this, dunno:

Corals are also able to selectively culture specific strains and increase the density of bacteria in several ways. They “farm†bacteria within recesses and interstitial spaces of their branches and colonies. Reduced water flow and microenvironmental conditions allow the proliferation of microbes used as food. They can also change the composition of their mucus by altering the production of the mucosecretory cells of the epithelium. The change in mucosal composition allows for variations in the microbial community on the surface in that different species and strains are more adept at exploiting various components of mucus.

Additionally, particulate aggregates are concentrated in the coral gut or coelenteron and moderated by the composition and amounts of coelenteric fluid released into the gastric cavity. This is yet another way to alter, increase, or vary the types and amounts of bacteria available as food, and another method of “bacteria farming.â€

Lastly, and only sort-of finally, specific strains of bacteria may be host specific in that species of corals may associate with one or several bacterial species in a symbiotic relationships. Increasing evidence points to the idea that the microbes on the surface are not only acting directly as food, but are involved in the production of specific compounds either in limited availability or unavailable by other means. The bacteria may provide these as “leaky†fluids resulting from their own metabolism. Additionally, nitrate reduction or nitrogen fixation is occurring, and the action of such microbes may provide an important source of inorganic nitrogen to both coral polyps and zooxanthellae. The specific associations of coral/bacteria may be related to the specific requirements of the individual coral species. There are even some corals, such as some Porites sp., that harbor bacteria intracellularly, and although it appears to be a commensal or symbiotic relationship rather than one of parasitism or pathogenicity, much more work is required to elucidate the true nature of these internal aggregates.

[wasp]

Taken from a scientific paper no doubt What is the reference to it?

In any case it again demonstrates the food value to corals of bacteria, something I have been trying to tell you the whole time. :roll:

[lduncan]

In any case it again demonstrates the food value to corals of bacteria, something I have been trying to tell you the whole time. :roll:

And it's something I've never denied.

[lduncan]

Taken from a scientific paper no doubt What is the reference to it?

Borneman. Refs are:

Rublee P.A., Lasker H.R., Gottfried M., Roman M.R. 1980. Production and bacterial colonization of mucus from the soft coral Briarium abestinum. Bull Mar Sci 30: 888-93

Rowher F., Breitbart M., Jara J., Azam F., Knowlton, N. 2001. Diversity of bacteria associated with the Caribbean coral Montastraea franksi. Coral Reefs 20: 85-91.

Linley E.A.S., Koop K. 1986. Significance of pelagic bacteria as a trophic resource in a coral reef lagoon, One Tree Island, Great Barrier Reef. Mar Biol 92: 457-464.

Herndl G.J., Velmirov B. 1985. Bacteria in the coelenteron of Anthozoa: control of coelenteric bacterial density by the coelenteric fluid. J Exp Mar Biol Ecol 93: 115-130

Herndl G.J., Velmirov, B. 1986. Microheterotrophic utilization of mucus released by the Mediterranean coral Cladocora caespitosa Mar Biol 90: 363-369.

Ducklow H. W., Mitchell R. 1979. Bacterial populations and adaptations in the mucus layers on living corals. Limnol Oceanogr 24(4): 715-725.

Ducklow H. W., Mitchell R. 1979. Composition of mucus released by coral reef coelenterates. Limnol Oceanogr 24(4): 706-714.

Di Salvo L. H. 1969. Isolation of bacteria from the corallum of Porites lobata (Dana) and its possible significance. Amer Zool 9: 735-740.

[wasp]

No, which one was your quote from?

[lduncan]

The Food of Reefs:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.php

[chimera]

the dates of those references are pretty old?

[lduncan]

the dates of those references are pretty old?

I didn't realise they had and expiry date

Seriously, what does it matter when they were done? Surely the important part is what was done and how.

Layton

[puttputt]

pretty old??? 2 yrs.

[puttputt]

oops sorry, thats the date of the article. :oops:

[chimera]

I didn't realise they had and expiry date

Seriously, what does it matter when they were done? Surely the important part is what was done and how.

It matters a great deal. Reef keeping in the 70's and 80's and to an extent, for some of the 90's we were in the dark ages. Many conclusions that were made then have changed. Not saying they have an expiry date, just new research can show things differently.

[lduncan]

It matters a great deal. Reef keeping in the 70's and 80's and to an extent, for some of the 90's we were in the dark ages. Many conclusions that were made then have changed. Not saying they have an expiry date, just new research can show things differently.

This isn't hobby literature, it's science. Coral researchers have been able to spawn and raise acroporids in BB systems science the mid 1800's. It's just hobbyists which had problems.

You have to be careful when reading that stuff to see what they actually did, and what they actually observed. Sometimes they have enough information on why, but will present possible mechanisms or reasons, but that is clearly distinct from the data. It's this which will change, not the actual data and observations.

Layton

[lduncan]

Sorry that should be early 1900's above.

[wasp]

Been getting enough sleep Layton? :lol: