lduncan Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 This is one of those beliefs that has been around a while because it sounds "logical". However Randy Holmes Farley the Reef Central Chemist stated bacteria in the tank would not be able to fix enough nitrogen to have significant effect. In other words, nitrate in fact can be limiting in a tank. I know Bomber said it, but he is not a chemist. I know Randy said it but he's not a biologist. ;-) Bomber is the one with a PhD in Marine Biology and Pathobiology, and Randy has degrees in Chemistry. Who would know more about bacteria's ability to fix nitrogen? I'd pick the Marine Biologist. I'm not saying it's a rule. I'm saying that it is far more likely that typical problems like algae and cyano (which incidentally can fix it's own nitrogen) are solvable by reducing phosphorous, rather than looking at nitrate. So nitrogen can be limiting to some "problem" causes, but not for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Layton, Its not for a new tank but for my established tank. If I cook it, will I need to seed tha bacteria, i.e. with rock or water from my tank, remembering that its been sitting out of water dry for over a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 It will speed things up. But not absolutely necessary. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suphew Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 suphew wrote: So if thats the case, in a new tank, vodka isn't going to be a long term solution? Cause the phos going to keep leaching, and and theres some limit to how long you can do this because of bacterial diversity, so what are you going to acheive? A cleaner looking cycling tank? Plus is it going to help with diatoms anyway? Which from what I have seen are the main problem in new systems (for the first 3-4 months anyway). It's not a never ending source. It takes a while to remove it. If this was the case why would you ever use Phos-sorb or vodka? Wouldn't you just wait for it to go as part of the cycle. What about phosphates in food, etc. I don't know and am happy to admit that I'm no expert (not even close) but I would be willing to bet that there is far more phosphate in food and topup water, etc etc than would ever leach from the PVC? Quote: But besides this I'm kind of surprised after all the debate regarding the "possible" risks of running a DSB, that you guys are so keen to use a system that so unknown. Huh? Are you saying "huh?" cause you didn't make those statements regards DSB's? (I'll say sorry now if I got that wrong), or because you dont understand my statement, it seemed pretty simple to me... Quote: Wouldn't it be far better and safer to just go with the tried and true and run rowaphos or some other phos-sorb product? Because it's unnecessary. They also can have problems of their own. It doesn't fix the real problem. Again, how is vodka going to "fix the real problem" and phos-sorb or similar wont?? If it is "unnecessary" to use phos-sorb why would it be necessary to use vodka. Neither of them are going to fix the problem, you still have to put food in. My point is that vodka is an unknown and possibly risky option where as rowaphos is pretty well understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 What about cooking your rocks with vodka added? With no lighting there wouldnt be any algae, so the only eaters of the ethanol would be the bacteria - speeding up their job. You could even skim the cooking vat. How many people cook their base rock? I thought it was fairly common to just chuck it in (slowly adding more over time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 If this was the case why would you ever use Phos-sorb or vodka? Wouldn't you just wait for it to go as part of the cycle. What about phosphates in food, etc. I don't know and am happy to admit that I'm no expert (not even close) but I would be willing to bet that there is far more phosphate in food and topup water, etc etc than would ever leach from the PVC? These are sources of phosphate in a tank which is not being fed, especially when new. Plasitcisers are often phosphate based, and when added to the tank can be a significant source until the residue has been used. Your right that food is a major source of phosphate in tanks, one which is unavaoidable, so you need mechanisms in place to deal with leftovers and th eventual waste. Are you saying "huh?" cause you didn't make those statements regards DSB's? (I'll say sorry now if I got that wrong), or because you dont understand my statement, it seemed pretty simple to me... Huh because it's a wierd question. What's unknown about the system? (Also, I'm not, and never have used it.) Again, how is vodka going to "fix the real problem" and phos-sorb or similar wont?? If it is "unnecessary" to use phos-sorb why would it be necessary to use vodka. Neither of them are going to fix the problem, you still have to put food in. My point is that vodka is an unknown and possibly risky option where as rowaphos is pretty well understood. Vodka (an other small organic molecules like acetate) feeds bacteria, which are literally everywhere in the tank. They are the ones which are responsible for storing and releasing differing forms of phosphorous. Bacteria consume phosphourous in much larger quantities than they need to live and reproduce, so inducing a bloom will suck many different forms of phosphorous, not just the water soluble orthophosphate. This is where it differs from rowa and stuff like that. For oxide removers to work, they need water soluble forms of phosphate (mainly ortho, but also some organically bound stuff as well). These forms only exist when all other pools (including bacteria) are full. Vodka isn't any more "unkown" than rowa and other resins. Phosphate problems come from the simple fact that there is more phosphate going in, than is been taken out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Picked up the rock tonight, stunning pieces, approx 75kg. Will begin cooking at the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 That's a lot of rock! How big's the tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Nitrogen won't be limiting very often in tanks, because bacteria can fix it directly from the atmosphere. I know Randy said it but he's not a biologist. ;-) Randy is not the only qualified person to disagree with Bomber on this theory, there are others. In fact, I have yet to see any suitably qualified person who will agree with Bomber on this, the theory is held only by Bomber and his small band of unqualified followers. The other weakness in your argument is that even though nitrogen fixing bacteria may from time to time show up in a tank, they will always be hugely outnumbered by nitrogen "unfixing" bacteria, which are the essence of the nitrogen cycle in our tanks as we know it. The only exception being if the tank is in serious trouble including bacterial diversity and balance being way out of line and the livestock likely in serious trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 The other weakness in your argument is that even though nitrogen fixing bacteria may from time to time show up in a tank, they will always be hugely outnumbered by nitrogen "unfixing" bacteria, which are the essence of the nitrogen cycle in our tanks as we know it. And what are these "hugely outnumbering nitrogen unfixing bacteria" using? Nitrogen of course. If nitrogen was limiting, then nitrogen fixing bacteria wouldn't be "hugely outnumbered" by nitrogen oxidising bacteria. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Partly correct although I think you may have something backwards. If nitrogen ever became limiting the bacteria processing it will slow down / stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Yip, and you'd see an increase in nitrogen fixing bacteria (cyano and the like), given sufficient phosphate. Mr Redfield again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasp Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Assuming required nutrients are available, perhaps. Not every tank with excess phosphate has cyano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puttputt Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Its already got 75 kg of rock in it at one end. Tanks 2.3 x .6 x.6. Over 1000l with sump and refugium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feelers Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Its lucky that everyone thought they were bidding for 50kg! It probably would have gone even higher. $3.10 per kg is pretty cheap!! Im surprised not many people were interested. I've just made my rocks, it should be interesting to see how they turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I'd just like to add to this thread, not that I've read all of it. I use Viniger to desolve Calcium for my top-off water. There are two advantages. 1 The calcium in the top-off is completely dissolved. 2 The only real byproduct of the reaction is organic carbon which is consumed by bacteria. I have been doing this for years without any problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Ok I've read some more of the post and I have to agree with Layton. Vodka and/or viniger are not the sollution to the problem you are trying to fix. All it will do is aid the fight not stop the problem or control it at the level of control that is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I'd just like to add to this thread, not that I've read all of it. I use Viniger to desolve Calcium for my top-off water. There are two advantages. 1 The calcium in the top-off is completely dissolved. 2 The only real byproduct of the reaction is organic carbon which is consumed by bacteria. I have been doing this for years without any problems. That is a good scheme, you get added calcium from the acetic acid /calcium hydroxide, with the benefit of adding acetate which is a food source which a wide variety of bacteria can utilise very effectively. Don't know whether I agree with the very last post though. I think you are more likely to be able to control and fix the source problem with vodka (or similar) because it can get the the bacteria in the tank which need it most. The ones which are in the rock migrating nutrients. Chemical removers don't have the same ability, the purely work at the dissolved compound level. Which generally only exist (for phosphate) when every other biological sink is full. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Don't know whether I agree with the very last post though. I think you are more likely to be able to control and fix the source problem with vodka (or similar) because it can get the the bacteria in the tank which need it most. The ones which are in the rock migrating nutrients. Chemical removers don't have the same ability, the purely work at the dissolved compound level. Which generally only exist (for phosphate) when every other biological sink is full. My point is that this sort of thing should be a last resort. There are other ways to fix the problem. Better to stop it first rather than have to fix the result of a system that is failing. Well controlled algae filters are a prime example of this. The problem is that people don't use them properly and/or don't know how to maintain them correctly. Most just leave them to build up problems and then wonder why everything crashes. Also people need to be more aware of what they are putting in there tank. The info on water supplies is availible through the Councils and in most cases it is online. You and I are lucky living in Christchurch as we have one of the purist untreated water supplies in the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Well controlled algae filters are a prime example of this. The problem is that people don't use them properly and/or don't know how to maintain them correctly. Actually, the "problem" is with the way they work. The way they work may be adequate for keeping some animals, just not the ones i like to keep. Knowing what I know now, I would never use algae to control nutrients in my tank. Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazymranch Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 Hey Control- What is the dilution of vinegar in your top-up water and what type of vinegar do you use/recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Actually, the "problem" is with the way they work. The way they work may be adequate for keeping some animals, just not the ones i like to keep. I think your only talking about the refugium type's that have a base and yes they are a problem, however it is the base that causes the problem not the algae. What is the dilution of vinegar in your top-up water and what type of vinegar do you use/recommend? It's not that simple, you must consider how much calcium your tank needs. Are you running a calcium reactor as well. In my main tank I use a diy dual chamber reactor as well, the first chamber is the cycle and the second runs at output speed just to clean up any Co2. I think the method would be more helpfull as the amount of calcium that would be used would vary from tank to tank. Use the same amount of calcium that you are currently using in your top off but moniter your tanks calcium levels more closely, you will probably find that you are putting more in than before because this method is more efficiant at dissolving the calcium and less wastefull. I first make a paste of vineger and calcium then I add vineger to the calcium in very small amounts say about 10 ml (no I don't measure that) with a gentle stir until it stops reacting with it. It is obvious when it stops but look closely. I then add my top off water. Be gentle but make sure it stirs. Sit over night and carefully pour the water off the top leaving the undesolved calcium behind. Now you will see how good your calcium really is. If the vineger didn't desolve it your tank would have no hope in doing so. Do not try to reuse what is left in the bottom, throw it away. You now have dissolved calcium in your top off water. Do not use cheap vineger You will quickly learn why cheap food products are a rip if you do so and waste calcium in the proccess. I use DYC white vineger. You can actaully taste the differance in quility when you put some on your tongue. The smell is allot weaker as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 I think your only talking about the refugium type's that have a base and yes they are a problem, however it is the base that causes the problem not the algae. Algae has it's own problems independent of substrate: http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/viewto ... 703#108703 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Not all algaes are the same Layton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lduncan Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 They all have a few things in common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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