lduncan

So you're more or less talking about a sump. The popular concept of a refugium is a tank with some sand some macro algae, and a place for critters to breed and feed more or less unpredated. Extra water volume doesn't help with dilution of wastes. It does however help with stability of parameter like calcium, mag, alk etc, as there is a larger pool from which the corals can obtain this stuff. Why doesn't it help with wastes. Well from the skimmers point of view, it has a fixed volume of water passing through it an hour, no matter what the total water volume of the system is. Now the skimmer efficiency (for lack of a better word) is related to the concentration of waste in the tank. So lower waste concentration means the skimmer removes less per hour, higher waste concentration means the skimmer removes more per hour. If you take that, then you'll see that the concentration of waste is not related to total system volume, but the skimmer parameters.

What does sand do? Traps detritus. Do you need it? No

Sure My position is that it clearly "works". However it is also more than obvious how it does work (either by design, or otherwise); essentially by inducing corals to bleach, and then trying to control the extent and effects of the bleaching with chemical foods / nitrogen sources. A casual reading of zeovit.com will show that (see below) Now the interesting part, and the part which is up for debate, is how exactly it does this. I have my theories. Others think i'm crazy, and part of some anti-zeovit propaganda group If you're up for that challenge and are happy with the risks that come with it, then go for it. But personally it's not my cup of tea. Layton http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5069 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4591 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3989 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3986 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3955 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3857 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3420 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3041 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2961 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2770 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2621 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2612 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2666 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2659 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2599 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2027 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1984 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1361 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=782 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=568 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222 http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4

That doesn't get rid of waste from the added bioload, it just means you can store more. The only way you can counter added load, is by increasing export, which generally means a bigger skimmer. Layton

How does water counter bioload? Skimmers counter bioload, not water.

We wouldn't pass if we didn't

Note: in your ads in the saltwater section, you refer to them as luminarcs: http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/refugi ... tml#165405 http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/auckla ... tml#163509 http://www.fnzas.org.nz/fishroom/which- ... tml#158734

Putting a sticker on something doesn't make it perform well. It comes down to design subtleties, which can have a dramatic effect on performance.

Yip could well be Oxypora or Echinophyllia too.

To be honest, I wouldn't waste my time. I've seen the design of the prism, it's crap. Too much wasted space.

If that were true, people would regret upgrading to a deltec. I haven't found many yet... just quietly .

It's definitely not a cap. It looks like an Echinopora (chalice) to me too.

...very expensive.

yes

Setting up an importing business could be an expensive mistake for you bychineva.

You never know appearances could be decieving.

Sometimes they will stop. When I first added my racoon butterfly, the sohal harassed it for a few days, but then pretty much ignored it after that. I think he realised that the racoon wasn't going anywhere, so he might as well give it up. Having said that, sometimes they don't. Again the sohal ended up harassing my blue tang to death, after living happily with it for over a year. If the copperband is not getting shredded to bits, i'd be tempted to leave it for a few days and see how it goes. Layton

So you have more life with a refugium, but no more bioload than without? Refugiums are nutrient traps. It's one of the reasons why they support all that "life". The fact that you don't feed any extra doesn't mean there isn't any more bioload in the tank. It means that the tank and it's inhabitants are better at sequestering and holding onto the food which is added. (Meaning less is exported) So can someone sum up the benefits of refugiums? We agree in general they are not good for nutrient removal. So what are they good for?

So in your OPINION, you think what i've said is wrong. Ok. Is that based on any "sound facts", or just opinion? I think i'll leave this one here. Layton

But you CAN generalise and say what i said, without quantifying exactly what the bioload is, based on typical stocking and relative refugium sizes. There are sound facts behind it. Just not specific numbers. It's not exaggerated, or opinion. I could just as easily say your statements on how little bioload they add is exaggerated. Layton

Look at the volume of fish and corals relative to the volume of sand, algae etc you have in a typical refugium. Then remember marine sediments are one of the most productive areas on earth. It's pretty easy to see that the added bioload is not at all trivial. Don't ask me to quantify it, it's pointless.

nope.

That statement there is kind of my whole point. You think that adding a 1 meter tank with "life" (sand macro pods bacteria etc) is adding minimal bioload to the system. Most people pass it of as trivial, or don't even think about it. It's not trivial, it's adding substantial bioload to the system. Layton

Sure it's relative, but based on the context where talking about here though, a typical sized refugium relative to main tank size, it's a good generalisation. But if you want to find an extreme case you can, but i'm generalising on what people actually do.

It's not opinion. If you take into consideration all the bacteria, critters etc which come with adding a refugium, what you're doing is adding bioload to the tank. This added bioload has a large demand for oxygen and carbon in particular.