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David is describing the results of breeding Blue/greens. Blue mated with regular (green) equals Blue/Green. Blue mated with Blue/Green should produce fry where 50% are blue. Blue/green with Blue/green should produce 25% Blues although that seems harder to achieve in actuality then the theory. What David is suggesting is that any Blue/Greens not kept for the purposes of breeding Blues should be culled and not sold as Greens to protect the integrity of the Regular Dempsey gene pool

I have seen H.Soniae and you would definitely notice the blue to their eyes, they are indeed pale blue. Hypostomus is quite a crowded genus especially is those colourations but I'd say mr pleco's close to the mark. Be interested to see what the PC crew say. As you say, if they are from Brazil then we may not see them again. Nice fish, look like they need a bit of conditioning which looks like is happening with your feeding regime. Not sure how recently the Ibama list was put up here but you can see how many it includes including all the L #'s you've mentioned. L002, L074 – Panaque sp.(L002) – Tiger ”Peckoltia” L004, L005, L028, L073 – Hypancistrus Sp. (L004) – Angelicus Pleco L010 – Loricaria lata L011, L035, L108, L116 – Squaliforma cf. emarginata – Red Fin Thresher Pleco, Thresher Pleco L017 –Hopliancistrus sp. (L017) L020 – Oligancistrus sp. (L020) L021 , L023 – Pterygoplichthys pardalis - Albino Pleco, Common Pleco L024 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L024) – Flame Pleco, Red Fin Cactus Pleco L025 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L025) – Scarlet Pleco L027 – Panaque sp. cf. nigrolineatus ‘tapajos’ – Goldline Royal Pleco, Tapajos Royal Pleco, L027 Tapajos L027, L027c – Panaque sp. cf. nigrolineatus ‘tocantins’ – Platinum Royal Pleco, Tocantins Royal Pleco, L027 Tocantins L027, L027c, LDA63 – Panaque sp. cf. nigrolineatus ‘xingu’ – Longnosed Royal Pleco, Red Fin Royal Pleco, Xingu Royal Pleco, L027 ‘xingu’ L027a, L330 – Panaque cf. nigrolineatus – Watermelon Pleco L027b – Panaque sp. cf. nigrolineatus – Olive Royal Pleco, Teles Pires Royal Pleco L030 – Oligancistrus sp. (L030) L031, L176, L300, LDA04 – Parancistrus nudiventris – Peppermint Pleco L033 – Lasiancistrus sp. (L033) L036 – Hemiancistrus spilomma L046, L098 – Hypancistrus zebra – Imperial Pleco, Zebra Pleco L050 – Hypostomus cf. cochliodon – Spotted Cochliodon, Spotted Humpbacked Pleco L053 – Harttia sp. (L053) L056 – Pseudancistrus sp. (L056) L058 – Lasiancistrus sp. (L058) L063 – Pseadacanthicus sp. cf. serratus L064 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L064) L065 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L065) – Blizzard Cactus Pleco, Mustang Cactus Pleco L066 – Hypancistrus sp. (L066) – King Tiger Pleco, Network Pleco, Scribbled Pleco L067 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L067) L068 – Ancistrini sp. (L068) L069 – Ancistrini sp. (L069) L070 – Hypancistrus sp. (L070) – Zombie Pleco L077 – Hypostomus sp. (L077) – Bruno Pleco, Rusty Pleco, Violet Pleco L079 – Pseadacanthicus sp. (L079) L082 – Ancistrini sp. (L082) – Opal Spot Pleco, Polka-dot Cigar Pleco L083, L165 – Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps – Gibby, Sail Fin Pleco L086, LDA14 – Oligancistrus sp. (L086) L095 – Pseudorinelepis genibarbis – Orange Cheek Pleco L096, L160 – Pseudacanthicus spinosus – Coffee & Cream Pleco, Spiny Monster Pleco L097 – Pseaudacanthicus sp. (L097) – Polka Dot Cactus Pleco L102 – Hypancistrus inspector – Snowball Pleco L113, L234 – Megalancistrus parananus L136, L136a, L136b, LDA05, LDA06 – Hypancistrus sp. (L136) L137 – Hypostomus soniae – Blue Eyed Red Fin Pleco L138 – Hypostomus sp. (L138) L139 – Hypostomus sp. (L139) L143 – Lasiancistrus sp. (L143) L155 – Acanthicus hystrix – Lyre Tail Pleco L168 – Dekeyseria brachyuran – Butterly Pleco, Flounder Pleco L171, LDA15 – Hopliancistrus sp. (L171) L172 – Ancistrini sp. (L172) L174 – Hypancistrus sp. (L174) L175 – Oligancistrus sp. (L175) L178 – Lasiancistrus sp. (L178) – Red Fin Lasiancistrus L179 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L179) L185 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L185) L186 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L186) L196 – Pterygoplichthys lituratus L197 – Ancistrini sp. (L197) L198 – Ancistrini sp. (L198) L208 – Ancistrini sp. (L208) L210 – Ancistrini sp. (L210) L216, L151 – Dekeyseria scaphirhyncha – Flat Head Pleco L217 – Lithoxus sp. (L217) L221, L223 – Guyanancistrus sp. (L221) L238, LDA40 – Delturus sp. (L238) – Brook Pleco L250 – Hypancistrus sp. (L250) L251 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L251) L254 – Spectracanthicus sp. (L254) L256 – Lithoxus sp. (L256) L258 – Parancistrus sp. (L258) L259, LDA32 – Parancistrus sp. (LDA32) L260 – Hypancistrus sp. (L260) – Queen Arabesque Pleco L262 – Hypancistrus sp. (L262) L263 – Leporacanthicus sp. (L263) L270, L307, LDA76 – Hypancistrus sp. (L270) – Chocolate Zebra Pleco, Tapajos Zebra Pleco L271 – Panaque sp. (L271) L272 – Panaque sp. (L272) L273 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L273) – Titanicus Pleco L275 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L275) L283 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L283) L290, L291 – Squaliforma cf. horrida L294 – Leporacanthicus cf. galaxias (L294) L296 – Panaque sp. (L296) L297 – Hypancistrus sp. (L297) L299 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L299) L310, LDA51 – Hypostomus cochliodon L315 – Spectracanthicus sp. (L315) L318 – Hypancistrus sp. (L318) L320 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L320) L321 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L321) L328 – Pseudolithoxus sp. (L328) L332 – Parancistrus sp. (L332) L337 – Lasiancistrus sp. (L337) L343 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L343) L333 – Hypancistrus sp. (L333) L345 – Hypancistrus sp. (L345) L347 – Pterygoplichthys sp. (L347) L353 – Oligancistrus sp. (L353) L354 – Oligancistrus sp. (L354) L360 – Hypostomus sp. (L360) L361 – Hopliancistrus sp. (L361) L363 – Oligancistrus sp. (L363) L365 – Lasiancistrus sp. (L365) L366 – Hypostomus sp. (L366) L367 – Hypostomus sp. (L367) L373 – Oligancistrus sp. (L373) L374 – Panaque sp. (L374) L375 – Pseudacanthicus cf. spinosus L380 – Pseudcanathicus sp. (L380) L381 – Hypostomus sp. (L381) L383 – Pseudacanthicus sp. (L383) L385 – Pseudolithoxus sp. (L385) L391 – Oligancistrus sp. (L391) L397 – Panaque sp. (L397) L398 – Panaque sp. (L398) L399 – Hypancistrus sp. (L399) L400 – Hypancistrus sp. (L400)

As with the others I'd say tank is wrong shape for all those fish. I have a full grown breeding pair and they are lovely little fish and are not dissimilar in attitude to their convict cousins as David has said, altough are way more colourful and perhaps not quite as Bolshy. They are great parents In your set up, with plenty of plants, wood and even surface covering plants I'd say the angels will be fine , and when sajicas get bigger and you get a pair they will probably take over the bottom of tank, which shouldn't worry Angels too much. Agree with getting rid of plec and nic as they will run out of room. Maybe throw in some cheap dithers for a bit of interest.

Yes I Thought the the Mod from the American forum was correct in his summation. It is one of the things I notice in our hobby here. This need for some to have an exclusivity in some fish and this stupid sense of superiority based on their perceived view of themselves. Why, after a fish is sold here for the first time or after a prolonged period is there aways race to be first out to breed and sell it. These are F1000's in most cases and the thrill of the chase somehow gets confused with grandiose importance. It is interesting to me how badly people can take information particularly when it is not what people wish to hear,as in Ryan's case. It would seem to me that personal ego has more to do with the response than the issue at hand, yet no slight was made or seemed to be intended. If my interpretation of something alters from that of another, then that is the issue. No one is slurring the reputation of anyone's Mother. Well done Ryan. As much as we think the regulations controlling our hobby are rigid, suppliers, importers etc are continually showing that it is pretty Mickey Mouse with non-id'd and mis-Id'd fish coming in on a regualr basis from a spectrum of oversea's sources that have proven to be inconsistant. We need people such as you to teach us the importance of fundamental research, and that there is no such thing as being 90% sure that you're 100% correct A keen breeder I would have thought would be well researched on such a fish. A more sceptical view could be that were such a fish researced then it's history and authenticity called into question then a price that would suitably reflect that fact would then be sought. As in this case perhaps?

Either way that weight will be issue I would have thought. Have you explored fabricated options? 'Rockwork" has some nice example of fabricated landscaping. If you are looking to use this as a buffering device there are less complicated options. Apart from that I would love to see the outcome should you go with this option.

Ryan's on the money with reabsorption and bacterial infection. Also, did you have a cave? Do you know the sex of the L168? Did she have any abrasions down the her sides. these can be barely noticeable. her trying to get into a cave and been killed by L168 as he had no reason to let let her in ,is a possibilty. There are no such things as pleco buddies, once territories are contended. Also on the L134- I disagree. Perhaps posting shot of your on PC would confirm this. These fish were imported as I'm aware through Aquarists, who is notorious for being supplied plecs with unconfirmed ID's from an American supplier for a good price. An ID and title is given at this end based exactly on what you guys have done on this thread. Searching till you find something close enough to "close the case". Other recent imports have been- "Bumblebee pleco", L254 brought in as blue phantoms, and the "bluespot pleco". The good thing is that peckoltias are obviously allowed in so maybe we can get in some L134 Leopard frog mouths. Plecs are fantastic and also do my head in when this sort of stuff happen. Sorry for your loss.

vhats vrong vith it?

As A.Prophecy as rightly noted i think you are more likely talking about LDA 33 or "Snowflake" Pleco. It is a Baryancistrus species as per Gold Nugget or Mango. Ilah is after "Snowball" which is a hyanancistrus species, L102 inspector, and from memory is on the "Ibama" export banned list as are most/all of that genus. Snowflake is solid black with large white spots, gets to 30ish cms, while Snowball only gets 1/2 that size and has very small white dots on dark mottled background.

PM'd

Ahh! There's David up there- I skipped a page by mistake. David- What chance that these will breed back to Rotkeil colouration and will continue to do so. Will the Gold be recessive and/or dominated? Will this effect the offspring in terms of just getting dirty fish. Does anyone know this?

David R where are you? He loves these arguments/disscussions and he knows the Severum well. A question: under natural influences(Without Human intervention) where natural selection, survival of the strongest are the determining factors of the direction a species takes, would the whole mutation quotient be that much of a influence particularly in shortened time frames, ie thousands of years as opposed to millions. I think this thread is more to do with the likelyhood of a Gold and Rotkeil Severum interbreeding naturally (naturally hybridising) because that is what the offspring here-hybrids. I think we are elevating the situation to heights and rhetoric unbefitting the simple fact of an individual once again misbreeding, misleading, and missing the point, all for a poultry sum.

No , But I do have a used set of diplomatic plates, especially useful for such "emergencies".

Sounds like the retailers have you very well trained then Alan. I think it has more to do with the fact that trhere is a void between the acctnts upstairs and the staff below. I don't know how many fish retailers take the opportunity of sending staff through the fish ans animal husbandry courses available and almost fully subsididised and will be until later this year. Granted there is a high turn over of young inexperienced staff in fish shops but to site this as an excuse for poor and illinformed service is doing no more than creating a bastion for Mediocrity. Your the consumer- Demand good service. Ironically the very first things taught in the Aquatics course is the laws surrounding consumer protection as in the Fair Trading and Consumer guarantees act. At the end of the day if the Admin put effort into staff then the decreasing amount of dead stock that earns nothing might warrant their change to their business model. Regards Michael Cullen Mtrs. LMVD

I was thinking it was more like the last season's review of a TV soap. Alot has happened in 4 days.

I think there is a place in the market for more specialist breeders and suppliers and in fact they are already out there, but in the guise of private or hobbyists who are breeding and supplying responsibly out of love rather than money. I'm sure if someone here asked the forum if anyone had a certain fish then the same names would come up in the replies. More to my point was the fact that for some reason we accept business practices from a lot of these retailers that we wouldn't accept from others. Buying a brand of Stereo/car/TV to find out that it wasn't what you asked for or thought you were buying would in all probability get more of a reaction than a post on a forum. Yes the monetry value may differ but the that isn't an excuse for inaccuracy's I would suggest too that the response from a stereo retailer to a complaint over a 'misname' or 'misprice' would be a lot different from what the average fish retailer thinks he can get away with. Yet both a bound by the same set of rules in terms of consumer protection. The argument that prices would have to go up if we want to ensure that some of these retailers fullfil the requirements of what is their "core business" only illustrates how successfully they have convinced us that they are impervious to the rules of everyone else. I would say in many cases their attitude would support that. People "screw" prices down everyday in terms of getting the best price. But I still expect after doing my deal to drive off the Moyes car lot in a Holden and not a Hybrid(LOL).

I have the dust pan and brush ready then pick a pot plant and its a mad rush to see how many I get. Great protein for larger fish.

Looks like flesh footed shearwater. Did you see any chicks, they should have hatched by now. They often like getting in the thick flax on hill faces.

Your impellor most probably got clogged during the clean and needs a cleanout. Happens to me also. you have to take off the bottom unit to get at the impellor. seems tricky but it's not.

I had a Rainbow tank about 3-4 yrs ago in a 300ltr and it was such a nice tank. they are georgous in numbers. Will try to grab out some old shots. I thought the ones with horizontal barring with red tail were 'Exquisites' or 'Western' and McCullochs were speckly greeny browns. Also add "Splendid" to the list of whats around now and then. Was always hoping that "parkinsoni" would turn up too.

There are browns and Teffe greens about, but as said above they are pretty hard to breed and in fact keep. When you think of the acclimitisation required from going fronm a flood plain the size of England through suppliers, importers, quarantine etc tne breeding is a big ask. The wilds that I did see were quite old and big eyed as well, although this shot of a Teffe in a friends tank a couple of years ago might make you reconsider your comment Ryan. It took an incredible amount of Maintainence to keep this pair happy, but when they were they were georgous.

I recently sold my Congo school as I thought I was over them and someone liked them, so away they went. Damm!- because once they get to a size they are georgous. and a good mid-level option with size.

All these tanks are at the higher end of the market for tanks of that sort and should all perform well, and I presume all have similar sort of warranties. I tend to remember that Jebo's were being phased out here( dont quote me), so that may be a factor in your thoughts should you require parts or after sales input. I'd be querying that fact. Jewel are relatively new to the wider market, so should be good with their backup. Otherwise personal preference I guess.

A little but often. Healthy fish will pretty much take a lot of disruption in their stride. If you keep up a regimented routine where you are doing small water changes often with a little gravel vac as opposed to a big percentage change every now and then I think you'll find your fish will not stress to much. The length of your hose is none of my concern, nor that of your fish. As is often said here- We keep water not fish. It just happens that there are some fish in our water.

Grow some up in your SA tank and it could be you.

Don't feel stupid 'Ant N'. Feell "brassed" off-(please note that my choice of 'Brassed" is to suit Mods as my prefered word would get me banned). Retailers ( particularly the chainstores and even the old school veterans) at the end of the day are by their own actions deserved of most peoples scorn. The decorus you bought in my experience are probably worth anywhere between $35-$50 if they aren't hybrids. The simple fact is a cuckoo will more likely set you back $70-$90. They will use this argument to justify you not being ripped off because you did pay the market price for the fish you got. The fact that they used the hype and reputation of another fish to ensure a sale is underhand, and it seems, to them, no more than a game, and your rights as a consumer are negated by their actions. The policy of so many fish shops and their attitude of their staff to the people who at the end of the day pay their wages is shoddy and substandard. Ask any number of forum members here whom we know to have a knowlege greater than many of these staff members. I'm sure their response will be the same in recounting an incident where they presented to a salesperson that some Fish ID was incorrrect or that a particular fish was perhaps incorectly housed. They are seen as a trouble maker or a 'know it all' and the position of the staff member is to sit on their bottom and do nothing. Even an investigation for the pure art of knowlege would at least be a redeeming factor in their case. Whether the mistake is genuine, or deliberate in order to market a fish and ensure a sale, I sometimes feel that their lack of interest in ensuring what they are selling is in fact what they say or it is, or it is of a quality to reflect a full retail price is low on their priorties. My advice- Go back to the shop. It does not matter the time since your purchase. Any proof of sale is great. Demand your money back in exchange for the fish. Their policy on returns is just that-"Their policy"- and need not impinge on your rights whatsoever. That retailer is in breach of both the fair trading act and the consumer guarantees act. You were mislead- Their ignorance is no excuse, and definitely not a case for deffering their resonsibility to you. If you get no result then continue to ask for a more a superior person. Fill your conversation with terms like "reasonable effort", "responsibilty" and " consumer rights" The irony is that the little badges they wear as recognition of the fish course's they do, shows you that the first thing they had to study in those courses is the rights of the consumer and the legislation I have referred too. Cheers!